DAS MATTHEW BRYZA DISCUSSES GEORGIA AND NK WITH

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 YEREVAN 000168 SIPDIS E.O. 12958: DECL: 03/04/2019 TAGS: PREL PGOV SCUL KIRF GG AM SUBJECT: DAS MATTHEW BRYZA DISCUSSES GEORGIA AND NK WITH CATHOLICOS REF: YEREVAN 83 Classified By: Marie L. Yovanovitch. Reasons 1.4 (b/d) SUMMARY -------------- ¶1. (C) During his meeting with EUR DAS Matthew Bryza, the Catholicos of All Armenians, Karekin II, expressed hope for a resolution of the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. He was less optimistic about a resolution of the growing dispute with the Georgian Church regarding the legal status of the Armenian Church in Georgia, the possession and condition of Armenian church properties and the unwillingness of GOG officials to resolve conflicts that risk alienating the church. DAS Bryza insisted that the USG has made return of Armenian churches a high priority in its discussions with the GOG and emphasized the need for respect between the churches as a key to reconciliation between the countries. End Summary. MEASURED OPTIMISM OVER NK SETTLEMENT -------------- ¶2. (C) EUR DAS Matthew Bryza met for the first time March 2 with the Catholicos of All Armenians, His Holiness Karekin II. DAS Bryza expressed the view that progress is being made on resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, and stressed that the USG is not trying to put pressure on either Armenia or Azerbaijan unless they exercise bad faith. He noted that he had recently criticized moves by the GOAJ at the United Nations regarding the conflict that threatened to undermine trust between the countries. The Catholicos noted that the Church has tried to make its own contributions to peace in the region, citing meetings with Islamic leaders from Azerbaijan as well as four-way meetings with the Patriarchs of Georgia and Russia, himself and the imams in Azerbaijan. He said he continues to hope that through mutual understanding, a resolution to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict can be achieved. LESS SO OVER GEORGIA -------------- ¶3. (C) The Catholicos was less optimistic regarding resolution of problems in Georgia, which he said he has been working for years to address. These include the "appalling" living conditions of Armenians in the Javakheti region (known to Armenians as Javakh); efforts to reclaim and renovate Armenian churches in Georgia, many of which are dilapidated or have been occupied and "Georgianized" by the Georgian Church; and lack of protection for religious minorities. He said another major frustration is that under Georgian law, only the Georgian Church is allowed to be registered as a religious institution; others must register as NGOs. One practical effect of this is that the Armenian Church is forced to pay value-added taxes on the renovation projects it seeks to do at Armenian churches in Georgia. The lack of legal status as a church has also allowed the Georgian Church to take over other church buildings, since no other church is recognized as such in the country. ¶4. (C) On Javakh, the Catholicos commented that years ago when he first visited the region, he saw the living conditions of the Armenian population and told then-President Kocharian that they were worse than those he had seen in Nagorno-Karabakh. Karekin II also expressed concern that "anti-Armenian propaganda" inside Georgia remains a significant hindrance to peace and reconciliation between the countries and the churches. He said he believes Georgian officials can do more to change public rhetoric and quash unfounded rumors (such as alleged Armenian aspirations for independence of Javakh). ARMENIA MORE TOLERANT OF OTHER RELIGIONS -------------- ¶5. (C) The Catholicos asserted that following independence, Armenia supported religious freedom and that the Armenian Church has never maintained an aggressive position toward any other church. He remarked on the "irony" that Georgia is usually categorized as a progressive state in human rights and religious freedom reports, in spite of its treatment of other churches and religious minorities. He insisted that Armenia, which generally fares much worse in such reports, would receive much greater criticism were it to treat religious minorities in the manner that Georgia does. ¶6. (C) The Catholicos claimed that almost 20 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, Georgia is the only CIS country to have regressed on religious freedom. Churches once well preserved under the Soviet regime are now allowed to crumble along with their identities. The years of Soviet atheism were actually better for these churches in Georgia, he claimed. SEEKING RETURN OF CHURCHES IN GEORGIA YEREVAN 00000168 002 OF 003 -------------- ¶7. (C) The Armenian church is seeking the return of six churches--three each in Tbilisi and the Armenian enclave of Javakh--and the right to undertake renovations (including an exemption from Value Added Taxes that is enjoyed by the Georgian church). He noted that the Armenian Church has even offered to allow the Georgian Church to use Armenian churches in Georgia, as long as they do not destroy their Armenian character. He was skeptical of plans for a GOG-proposed historical commission to study the question of the Norashen Church in Tbilisi, since it should be beyond dispute that Norashen, which was closed for 70 years in the Soviet era, has been an Armenian church for 400 years (see reftel). ¶8. (C) The Catholicos insisted that the church is doing all it can to improve relations with the Georgian church, and wonders what the next step should be. At several points during his lengthy monologue on this issue, he asked rhetorically whether it would be better to encourage Armenians around the world to protest the behavior of the Georgian Church and the GoG in front of Georgian embassies. He said he would prefer to seek resolution through USG intervention, and expressed confidence that the Georgian authorities would "do what the United States asks them to do." He said he is often told that the solution to these disputes rests in working with Georgia's Patriarch, but he finds that option unworkable. As one example, the Georgian Patriarch reportedly replied to the request for the return of the six churches by saying he would agree to it in exchange for supposedly Georgian monasteries in Armenia, a proposition the Armenian Church finds absurd, as did Bryza, since the Georgian Church has not held sway on the territory of Armenia since its conversion to Orthodoxy 14 centuries ago. ¶9. (C) Bryza replied that with respect to the return of Armenian church properties in Georgia, he and Ambassador Tefft had repeatedly spoken with both President Sakaashvili and the Mayor of Tbilisi. Bryza said Mayor Ugulava seemed committed to securing an agreement to return the Norashen Church, provided political cover could be found for the Tbilisi city government and the Government of Georgia to make this move. He said he had been appalled by the damage to tombstones and defacement of church buildings in Georgia, and asserted that mutual respect for and between the two churches is essential for good relations in the Caucasus. AFRAID OF THEIR OWN CHURCH -------------- ¶10. (C) The Catholicos expressed frustration that when raising his concerns with the GoG or Church officials, both tell him to address his concerns to the other, that they have no role or influence in the matter. He decried the apparent lack of political courage on the part of GOG officials to act against Church positions in addressing Armenian Church concerns. He noted that only a week earlier, he had met in his office with Georgian Parliamentary Speaker Davit Bakradze--in what turned out to be a contentious meeting, with Bakradze claiming the state has "no role" in the issue of the Armenian Church in Georgia, and that the Catholicos should take up the issue with the Patriarchate of the Georgian Church. ¶11. (C) The Catholicos believed that the GoG and the Georgian Church use each other as an excuse for not making progress in reconciling with the Armenian Church. He further expressed frustration that the Georgian Church, in an effort to project its influence, has put the GOG in a difficult position, in which public officials fear the political consequences of crossing the church. Consequently, he argued, the Georgian Church has ceased to be a stabilizing force in Georgian society. He asserted that the Armenian Church has always put the security of the state as its top priority, and that he sees the Church's role as providing service to the state and the people. ¶12. (C) Bryza noted that the USG has made return and restoration of Armenian churches an important political issue in its discussions with the GoG. He has known key Georgian officials for years and believes they are serious about reconciliation. However, he acknowledged that the politicians are sometimes frightened of a public backlash that would come from confronting the Georgian Church. Although Georgian officials remain hesitant to address these issues, Bryza said Ambassador Tefft and he are trying to push them to engage, even warning President Sakaashvili that they could face demonstrations if they cannot resolve these issues satisfactorily. COMMENT -------------- YEREVAN 00000168 003 OF 003 ¶13. (C) The Catholicos was warm and friendly, even as he was also emotional as he repeated what has become a consistent Church position about the reported intransigence of the Georgian side. He was frustrated by his meeting with the Georgian Speaker, and eager to plead his case with DAS Bryza. The Armenians' frustration is mounting over their seeming inability to find any Georgian interlocutor willing to engage substantively on this issue. End Comment. ¶14. (U) EUR DAS Bryza has cleared on this cable. YOVANOVITCH