DAS KROL MEETS UZBEK FOREIGN MINISTER NOROV IN

C O N F I D E N T I A L TASHKENT 000879 SIPDIS E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/30/2018 TAGS: PGOV PREL SOCI PHUM KCOR PINR KTER ENRG UZ SUBJECT: DAS KROL MEETS UZBEK FOREIGN MINISTER NOROV IN TASHKENT REF: A. TASHKENT 855 ¶B. TASHKENT 860 Classified By: Political Officer Tim Buckley for reasons 1.4 (B,D) ¶1. (C) Summary: On July 25 Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia George Krol met with Foreign Minister Vladimir Norov in Tashkent. The atmosphere was warm and cordial, and Norov framed his remarks in the context of President Karimov's positive July 22 meeting with the Ambassador, during which Karimov called for more concrete bilateral engagement. DAS Krol conveyed the message that the U.S. wants to take pragmatic steps to engage across the board in all areas -- security, economic, governance, and human rights - and that we have many common interests to pursue. However, DAS Krol noted that Uzbekistan still has an image problem stemming from Andijon that needs to be overcome. ¶2. (C) Norov blamed corruption in Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan for exacerbating the effects of the severe winter, and also complained about terror groups, narcotics, and counterfeit goods that flow into Uzbekistan from these neighbors. He also expressed resentment about Russia's historical influence and predatory gas policies. On Afghanistan, Norov restated Uzbek criticisms of the Karzai-led government and continued pushing Karimov's 6 plus 3 plan; nonetheless, he said Uzbekistan is ready to expand electricity and rail connections to Afghanistan. The Government of Uzbekistan appreciated DAS Krol's visit, the latest in a series of high-level Department officials to visit after a long dry spell. We expect continued sharp divisions on the Andijon legacy, religious freedom, and human rights, but it appears that the Uzbeks have moved past the travel restrictions. While it was clear the Uzbeks want to engage, it remains to be seen whether they will go beyond the nice words expressed to DAS Krol and take measures that will allow us to move forward on the broad agenda that was discussed. End summary. Picking Up Where We Left Off -------------- ¶3. (C) On July 25 visiting DAS Krol had a cordial two-hour meeting with Foreign Minister Norov, who was relaxed and willing to provide lengthy, unscripted answers to questions instead of stock remarks. DAS Krol visited just three days after President Karimov met with the Ambassador on July 22 and called for more concrete steps to pick up the pace of reengagement (ref A). Norov referenced this positive backdrop and called for returning to the principles set forth in the strategic partnership agreement from President Karimov's 2002 visit to Washington. Norov reaffirmed that "we are open to constructive dialogue" on bilateral as well as regional security issues such as stability in Afghanistan, terrorism, and counter-narcotics. At the end of the meeting, Norov proposed setting up a mechanism for more regular bilateral discussions. Norov also indicated that he would likely lead the Uzbek delegation to this year's UN General Assembly. ¶4. (C) DAS Krol referenced Secretary Rice's meeting with Foreign Minister Norov in Paris earlier this year and reiterated the U.S. Government's respect for the Uzbek people and our desire to return to spirit of the 2002 declaration. He added that, although we do not meet eye-to-eye on all issues, we have common interests to pursue. The U.S., he specified, wants to take pragmatic steps to engage Uzbek society and government across the board in all areas -- security, economic, governance, and human rights issues. Yet DAS Krol stressed the importance of moving beyond words to actual deeds; in particular, he encouraged the Uzbeks to address the measures Assistant Secretary Boucher identified on releasing prisoners, implementing a work plan with ICRC, engaging with NGO's (including Human Rights Watch). Afghanistan -------------- ¶5. (C) Norov promptly delved into Uzbek concerns about the Taliban regrouping on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border and the Government of Uzbekistan's desire to "avoid a crisis from this concentration of Taliban forces." He recalled the days when the Taliban posed a threat on the southern Uzbek border, which Uzbekistan successfully withstood. Norov delivered the oft-stated Uzbek position that the Taliban resurgence is due to the corruption of the Afghan government "that does not answer its people's needs." He described Karzai as "not a charismatic leader" who is opposed even within his own administration; instead, Norov continued, "Afghanistan needs someone who can unite its people." Norov used these arguments to explain why Afghanistan was not part of Uzbekistan's proposed 6 plus 3 framework to address Afghanistan issues. ¶6. (C) Despite Uzbekistan's disdain for the Karzai-led government, Norov emphasized Uzbekistan's keen interest in Afghanistan's stability and "does not want a repeat of the Soviet experience." After all, he said, "we share a border with Afghanistan, whereas someday NATO will be gone." He said the Russia-dominated Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) is not a suitable entity to be involved since it lacks the expertise to understand Uzbekistan's border. Norov also said Uzbekistan recognizes the long-term economic benefits of a stable Afghanistan, and noted that an Afghan delegation arrived in Tashkent on July 24 to iron out issues related to electricity transmission as well as an extension of the railroad line from its present terminus just across the Amu Daryo River in Xayraton to Mazar-i-Sharif. "We are ready," said Norov, "and a contract will be signed." Religious Freedom -------------- ¶7. (C) Norov also mentioned recent progress in U.S.-Uzbek dialogue on religious freedom issues in the wake of Ambassador Hanford's recent visit. (Note: DAS Krol also met with Religious Affairs Committee Chairman Yusupov on July 25. Septel. End note.) Norov highlighted that Uzbekistan is proud that it never had pogroms of the sort which occurred in Russia and Ukraine, and he noted the long history of Bukharan Jews coexisting peacefully with Muslim neighbors. He pointed to Kyrgyzstan as having "stressful religious issues, especially in the south." He said there will still be differences of opinions on this issue reflected in an exchange of letters, but he restated the openness to dialogue. ¶8. (C) Norov explained that Uzbekistan has to contend with destabilizing religious terrorist groups, which influences its stance on religion. He said that "no one can change the words of the Koran, but they can interpret it anyway they want. We do not want Wahabbism, but rather religion in our own traditions." He maintained that Uzbekistan protects religious rights despite its concerns, but asked "should freedom for Muslims equate to tolerating Hisb-ut-Tahrir (HT)?" Norov added that "I am a Muslim, but I do not want a jihad or a caliphate." Therefore, he said that separation of church and state is important to Uzbekistan's stability. Yet he also conceded that "jail is not best place for fighting extremism; rather, education is the key." Neighbors Have Problems... -------------- ¶9. (C) Karzai and the Afghan government are not the only target of Uzbekistan's wrath, as Norov was full of enmity for Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan throughout the meeting. DAS Krol asked about the prospect of another tough winter with severe conditions for the Kyrgyz and Tajik people. Norov said Uzbekistan is following the situation closely and indeed expects "crises" again due mainly to endemic corruption. "These are not real countries," he stated scornfully, "and there are no attempts at reform." Norov was particularly harsh on President Rakhmon, whom he accused of building a palace during a time of suffering, and he added that "people don't respect or even keep his picture anymore." Norov also said, again particularly of Tajikistan, that "the clan system filters money away" and the country "is living off grants." Whereas Uzbekistan devotes 51 percent of its budget to social programs, according to Norov "Tajikistan doesn't do anything." This is reflected in growing income disparity in those countries, he stated, while in Uzbekistan the highest paid officials earn only seven times the minimum wage received by the lowest strata. (Comment: It is ironic to hear such criticism coming from the Government of Uzbekistan, which has long been accused of exactly the same corruption, resistance to reform, clan influence, and income disparity between elites and non-elites. Norov did his best to portray Uzbekistan as a bastion of prudent governance on a wild frontier. End comment). ¶10. (C) Norov said neighboring countries constantly complain about Uzbekistan's strict border controls vis-a-vis its neighbors, which he said is necessary because of the steady flow of counterfeit goods and narcotics, particularly from Kyrgyzstan concerning the former and Tajikistan the latter. While there are agreements within the framework of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS),Norov said they are not applicable to products from third countries. He explained that "the Kyrgyz economy collapsed mainly because China destroyed it with cheap imports." He pointed out that "up to four thousand Chinese merchants can regularly be seen trading in the Kara-Suu Bazaar" just across the border in Kyrgyzstan. ¶11. (C) Norov criticized Kazakhstan as having disproportionately higher crime and incarceration rates than Uzbekistan, which he attributed to Uzbekistan's enlightened liberalization of its criminal justice system. Plus, Norov said Kazakhstan "would have a major financial crisis if not for the help of oil." Turkmenistan was the only neighboring country to receive praise from Norov, who noted that "its policies have changed in a cardinal way since President Berdimuhamedov took over." According to Norov, this has directly resulted in improved bilateral relations. He also pointed out that the two countries have a lot in common, particularly as gas exporters. But Uzbekistan is Poised for Success -------------- ¶12. (C) Norov proudly noted that Uzbekistan is in a position to attract investment based on cheap energy, abundant natural resources, and a quality labor force. He cited the confidence that General Motors had in making its substantial investment here, which will result in the assembly of more than two hundred thousand cars this year. He predicted that many ancillary jobs will be created as suppliers rush to establish a presence near GM, which he sees as contributing to Uzbekistan's growing manufacturing clout. Norov also lavished praise on the Uzbek education system that is producing the talent that companies are looking for. ¶13. (C) Both Norov and Ataev indicated that Karimov recognized the need to leave as a legacy a state based on durable institutions rather than one that would rise and fall with one man. Hence, they noted the plethora of recent laws and decrees aimed at cardinal judicial reform, including the habeas corpus law, elimination of the death penalty, establishment of a judicial research center, and strengthening the Uzbek bar association. Water -------------- ¶14. (C) Water issues are another sore point in Uzbek relations with Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Norov lamented that Uzbekistan is getting "only half of the water necessary" because its neighbors are releasing water in winter (to generate electricity) and holding more back in the summer. He mentioned that they sell electricity to Afghanistan and "throw away water," and Norov worriedly noted that Pakistan also wants to obtain more energy from Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Norov said Uzbekistan is adamant that hydro-power projects "must correspond to international conventions." Norov stated that the UN Convention on Trans-National Water Resources supports the Uzbek position that mountain-source water does not exclusively belong to the Kyrgyz or Tajiks. He reaffirmed that Uzbekistan should not pay its neighbors for water and, as for the argument that they have to maintain infrastructure such as dams and turbines, Norov said they greatly benefit from the cheap power generated and so this argument is weak. Andijon -------------- ¶15. (C) When DAS Krol raised the negative impact of Andijon on Uzbekistan's image in Washington, Norov elaborated about how fighters crossed into the Uzbek part of the Ferghana Valley after the revolutionary events in Kyrgyzstan in March ¶2005. Norov emphasized that the participants took hostages, killed innocents, and destroyed government installations; yet, the Western press "spread one-sided information." He criticized Al Jazeera for recently running an Andijon documentary seven times that he denounces as full of false information, such as images of snipers on rooftops that Norov insists were terrorists and not government personnel. He continued that human rights defenders fuel the misinformation in the press by competing with each other to raise the death tolls reported from the scene. Nonetheless, Norov (as did National Security Council Secretary Ataev in a separate meeting) admitted that Uzbekistan had made mistakes in dealing with Andijon, but was now looking to the future. DAS Krol emphasized the need to deal with the effects of the tragedy and ensure that it is never repeated. ¶16. (C) Comment: We agree that there were inaccurate reports about the Andijon incidents that made their way into the press; crimes were committed and film evidence confirmed that there were indeed armed insurgents gathered in the square on the fateful day. However, the Government of Uzbekistan has never grasped that responding to crises with secrecy and cover ups tremendously hurts its cause. The explosions at the ammunition depot in Bukhara Province on July 10 offer another example of this, as panicked residents filled the information vacuum by spreading rumors of death tolls in the thousands and apocalyptic damage to Kagan city, both of which turned out to be overblown. Ref B. End comment. Russia -------------- ¶17. (C) Norov criticized Russia for having gotten rich selling gas to the West at the expense of countries such as Uzbekistan. "Forget brotherly history," he said, noting that this year Uzbekistan will only sell gas at world prices (even though as the DAS noted that this would devastate Kyrgyzstan). Norov also distanced Uzbekistan from the Soviet Union's legacy, pointing out that a whole generation of Uzbeks has grown up in the era of independence without memory of the Soviet experience. "They know who Britney Spears is, but not Brezhnev," he added. ¶18. (C) In a July 18 meeting with the Ambassador, Norov also used a surprisingly anti-Russian tone in explaining why the Human Rights Watch Country Representative should not be a Russian citizen. He mentioned negative impacts of Soviet history such as Bolshevism and arrests of Uzbeks by the secret police. Plus, the USSR "imposed its values on Uzbekistan" while disrespecting local customs, he noted bitterly. When the Ambassador noted that the Human Rights Watch Country Representative was a modern Russian, Norov retorted that this is a "xenophobic" Russia in which "Uzbeks are getting killed on the streets." Image of U.S. in Uzbekistan -------------- ¶19. (C) After discussing the impact of Uzbekistan's image in the United States, DAS Krol turned the tables and inquired about the U.S. image in Uzbekistan. Norov stated that it was very positive in the USSR days. When the Soviet Union collapsed, he said Uzbeks "expected a Marshall Plan but instead got a reality check" in the form of strict IMF and World Bank policies, critical entities like Freedom House, and "agricultural NGOs who meddled in politics." Suspicion of the U.S. mounted, he explained, especially with war and instability in Tajikistan and Afghanistan. Norov said that "mutual trust and objectivity" will fully restore the positive image of America in Uzbek eyes. He cautioned against believing everything that human rights activists publish on the Internet and including it verbatim in State Department Reports, which he said happened in the past (although he said the present Ambassador has already demonstrated improved objectivity and a better understanding of the region). Comment: -------------- ¶20. (C) DAS Krol's visit was the latest in a series of recent high-level diplomatic visits to Tashkent, which the Government of Uzbekistan appreciated. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs promptly granted all requested meetings, and the level of detail Norov provided in the lengthy meeting suggests Uzbek officials feel much more comfortable talking with U.S. diplomats than in the recent past. It seems the Uzbeks have decided to move past the travel restrictions rather than freeze the relationship. The front page photo and articles of the Ambassador's July 22 meeting with President Karimov in the state-run newspapers also turned many heads in Tashkent, and the U.S. star seems to be on the rise -- for now. DAS Krol's meeting was therefore well-timed and offered an excellent opportunity to drive home our key points that we need to see more progress on human rights, religious freedom, and support for Afghanistan. It was clear the Uzbeks want to engage, but it remains to be seen whether they will go beyond the nice words about cooperation expressed to DAS Krol to take measures that will allow us to move forward on the broad agenda that was discussed. ¶21. (U) DAS George Krol has cleared this telegram. BUTCHER