CODEL SIRES VISIT TO MADRID, NOVEMBER 13-14, 2008

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 05 MADRID 001212

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 11/17/2018
TAGS: OREP PREL SP
SUBJECT: CODEL SIRES VISIT TO MADRID, NOVEMBER 13-14, 2008

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Classified By: DEPUTY CHIEF OF MISSION ARNOLD A. CHACON, REASONS 1.4B,

D.


1. (U) Summary: Codel Sires (Representatives Albio Sires,
Lynn Woolsey, Phil Gingrey, Ron Klein, and Laura Richardson)
visited Madrid November 13-14 to discuss rail transportation
security, counter-terrorism, and bilateral relations. They
met with Minister of Interior Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba,
Minister of Public Works Magdalena Alvarez, Office of the
Presidency Director of the Department of International
Politics and Security Milagros Hernandez, and Minister of
Foreign Affairs and Cooperation Miguel Angel Moratinos.
Codel Sires also toured the scene of the March 11, 2004,
Atocha train station bombing. End summary.

Minister of Interior
--------------

2. (C) In a meeting that ran over 90 minutes, Interior
Minister Rubalcaba opened by describing the counter-narcotics
and anti-organized crime relationship with the U.S. as
"excellent." He singled out DEA and FBI in this regard. He
said the counter-terrorism relationship was "good" but noted
CT was a more complex challenge. Rubalcaba said Spain would
make improving the transatlantic CT relationship a priority
during its EU Presidency in the first half of 2010. He noted
Spain and the UK had suffered most grievously from terrorism
among European nations. He mentioned Spain,s unique
position on the southern border of Europe in proximity to
North Africa, the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla, and the
history of Al Andalus (frequently mentioned in al-Qaeda
propaganda) as factors which increased Spain,s profile for
terrorists.


3. (C) Rubalcaba briefly explained Spain,s law enforcement
and intelligence structures (Civil Guard and National Police
and a centralized intelligence service in CNI plus the Civil
Guard, National Police, military intelligence units). He
also mentioned Spain,s creation of an NCTC equivalent (the
CNCA).


4. (C) Rep. Sires offered condolences on the recent loss of
two Spanish soldiers in Afghanistan, and thanks for Spain,s
efforts there as well as for the strong military-to-military
relationship. Rep. Woolsey added her thanks for Spain,s
work in Afghanistan, saying that many Americans understood
Spain,s reasons for withdrawing from Iraq. She asked what
should be done next in Afghanistan. Rubalcaba said that
Spain would stick with its allies in Afghanistan and would
leave when the U.S. leaves. He joked that while in general
the Minister of Interior had more headaches than the Minister
of Defense, Afghanistan was the one case were he did not envy
his cabinet colleague. Nevertheless, he said he would offer
a personal opinion on Afghanistan: the allies were losing.
The Taliban was pushing back hard and attacks were on the
rise. He said two years ago there were virtually no attacks
on their forces, last year the attacks rose to two a week,
now they were seeing four to five attacks a week. In his
opinion Afghanistan was going backward both militarily and
socially. He noted the effects of the drug trade and said
allied efforts to build the government, the security forces,
and infrastructure were not perceived by the populace as
valid. Rubalcaba said the allied forces were being seen as
invaders rather than builders. He said the allies needed to
change their approach to avoid repeating the Soviet
experience in Afghanistan. He suggested more funding was
needed and needed to be spent more effectively so the Afghans
would believe that allied help was moving them forward. He
said there was a need for social action that perhaps the
militaries were not able to perform. He opined that more
countries should be involved in the effort, maybe even
Russia. Finally, he emphasized building a civilian police
force, something he said the military could not do,
suggesting perhaps that was a role for the EU.


5. (C) Rep. Klein urged continued Spanish support for Iraq.
He also urged Spain to take a greater role in Afghanistan
along with other countries. Rep. Gingrey said things were
improving in Iraq, and the opportunity might exist to draw
down in Iraq and put more forces into Afghanistan.
Rubalcaba said Spain,s position on Iraq was well known, but
added Spain realized the need to help Iraq. He said there
was no point in focusing on past problems. It was important
to Spain that Iraq be a success and to support reconstruction
there. He admitted that the economic crisis made it tougher
for Spain to help. He said Spain had suffered recessions in
the past but the current one was particularly abrupt. He
compared it to an arrested landing on an aircraft carrier.
Nevertheless, he said Spain was in Afghanistan to stay. He
mentioned the importance of Pakistan. Rubalcaba stressed
that a changed approach was needed in Afghanistan. He said
polls in Spain showed the public understood the mission but
nevertheless wanted Spanish troops out of Afghanistan. He

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joked that like any Catholic country, Spain presented many
contradictions. In Afghanistan, the Spanish public wanted
something done but trusted Providence to take care of it.
Rubalcaba said the allies needed to discuss new approaches
and ways to win. He insisted we could not afford to lose and
leave the terrain to the Taliban. He said defeat in
Afghanistan would be a huge morale boost to terrorists
everywhere.


6. (C) In answer to a question from Rep. Klein, Rubalcaba
said Spain had effective controls in place at its airports
(he noted getting on a plane in Spain had become an ordeal).
He said efforts at sea ports were not as far along. He noted
Spain,s car ferries (e.g., to the Balearic Islands)
presented targets. He also said he was concerned about cargo
security, noting that the heavy cocaine flows into Spain
meant there was a strong police presence in the ports, which
he said was a dissuasion, but he said cargo controls were in
their early stages. Rubalcaba noted that North and West
Africa were increasing concerns to Spain. He mentioned the
activities of al-Qaeda in North Africa and the recomposition
of smaller terrorist groups under the al-Qaeda label. He
said CT was a global fight that was receding in some places
(e.g., the Philippines and Iraq) even as it expanded in
others (Afghanistan and North Africa).


7. (C) Asked by Rep. Richardson if he had any message for the
delegation to carry home, Rubalcaba said that in any
friendship there were periods when one called every day and
periods when one called not so often. Spain, he said, wanted
to be the "daily call" kind of friend to the U.S. He said it
was necessary to reaffirm this because of some of the
difficult moments in the past. On CT, Rubalcaba said Spain
wanted the same relation with the U.S. it enjoyed on the
counter-narcotics effort. He recognized that this was
tougher because it involved sensitive intelligence
relationships. Finally, Rubalcaba noted that Spain had
nearly defeated the U.S. for the gold medal in basketball in
the Beijing Olympics. He noted that although he should not
share state secrets, Spain,s plan to infiltrate more players
into the NBA was proceeding well.


8. (C) Rep. Sires asked about Spain,s attitudes towards the
new U.S. President-elect. Rubalcaba said Spain, like all
Europe, had watched the election closely. He said Senator
Obama had offered a fresh discourse that was in some ways
similar to the thinking of the moderate European left.
Rubalcaba quickly added that Senator McCain,s concession
speech was a "jewel" of democratic politics and he had said
as much in the Spanish Congress. He noted Spain took its hat
off to Senator McCain. Rubalcaba also commended President
Bush,s speech on the transition, saying it spoke volumes
about the institutional strength of the U.S. Rubalcaba said
Spain would like to be the first country the new President
visited, and while he understood that might not be possible,
Spain lost nothing by asking. He urged that Obama come to
Spain. Rubalcaba said he had been in politics 25 years --
long enough to be considered a museum piece -- but he said he
had never seen such high expectations as existed for the new
U.S. Administration. He questioned how those expectations
could be calmed since meeting them could be a problem.

Minster of Public Works
--------------


9. (U) Minister of Public Works Magdalena Alvarez spent over
an hour with the delegation, describing Spain,s 2005-2020
transportation infrastructure plans. She noted that when
President Zapatero came to office in 2004, he decided on
major changes to transportation infrastructure in Spain. By
2020 Spain intended to increase highways by a factor of two
and high-speed rail by a factor of ten. Spain would make a
250 billion euro investment in rail, airports, seaports, and
roads of which 50 percent would go to rail. She said Spain
had bet heavily on high-speed rail, but thought it was a safe
bet. Alvarez noted that in the 15 years prior to 2004, Spain
had built 1,000 kilometers of high speed rail, but in the
last four years alone Spain had added another 700 kilometers.
She said Spain would be the number one country in the world
in terms of miles of high-speed track by 2010.


10. (SBU) Alvarez noted that the extension of high-speed rail
to Barcelona had become a political football in the last
general election when the government missed its target for
opening the line by 90 days, but she said the delay, which
she attributed to the sorts of construction delays typical in
any large building project, was minor. (Comment:
Construction accidents caused the deaths of workers and
interrupted commuter rail traffic in Barcelona for several
weeks. End comment.) She added that high-speed lines to
Valladolid and Malaga opened on schedule. Alvarez pointed
with pride to Spain,s policy of refunding fares if the high

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speed train arrived more than 15 minutes late, which she was
unique in the world and made possible by the trains 99%
on-time record. Alvarez said the high speed lines cost an
average of 14 million Euros per kilometer. Funding (at least
up until the present) had come from a combination of EU and
Spanish sources. Where the lines entered the cities, the
state (autonomous community) and local governments helped pay
the infrastructure costs. Since most cities wanted the lines
underground, the GOS paid the equivalent of surface
installation costs and helped defray the remainder by leasing
the land above the tunnels, the difference was paid by the
state and local governments.


11. (SBU) Alvarez explained that one government company,
RENFE, was responsible for operating the trains while a
second government company, ADIF, operated the stations and
associated infrastructure (e.g., parking). The passenger
trains were operated by RENFE while freight was handled by a
combination of public and private-sector ventures. She noted
some of Spain,s high-speed rail lines handled passengers,
others freight, and some handled both. She said the freight
lines were more expensive to operate and maintain, but in
some areas of Spain the passenger load was simply not
adequate to cover the costs. Alvarez said her Ministry
cooperated well with the Ministry of Interior on security
issues and described in some detail Spain,s investment in
safety systems for the high-speed trains.

International Politics and Security
--------------


12. (C) President Zapatero,s national security advisor,
Milagros Hernando, repeated to the delegation what they heard
from other interlocutors about Spain,s desire to improve
bilateral relations. She said Spain intended to use its EU
Presidency in the first half of 2010 to promote the
transatlantic relationship. Asked by Rep. Klein about more
financial assistance for Iraq and more troops for
Afghanistan, Hernando said Afghanistan would be an agenda
item with the U.S. not just for Spain, but for Europe. She
suggested the allies needed to look beyond purely military
solutions and added that Zapatero was talking about an EU
Council debate on how to energize efforts in Afghanistan.
Rep. Woolsey said some in the U.S. would agree the solution
cannot be solely military. Responding to Rep. Klein on the
subject of Iran, Hernando said Spain tried to follow EU
consensus. Asked by Rep. Gingrey about Spain,s position on
missile defense, Hernando noted the NATO Bucharest Summit
declaration but said Spain was concerned about the prudence
of the current approach on missile defense. Hernando
mentioned that Spain was in the midst of developing a new
national security strategy.

Minister of Foreign Affairs and Cooperation
--------------


13. (C) Codel Sires met for an hour and a half with Spanish
FM Miguel Angel Moratinos. Rep. Sires offered condolences
for the recent loss of two Spanish soldiers in Afghanistan.
Moratinos thanked the Codel for visiting Spain. He said in
looking back over the last (nearly) five years it was
regrettable that the two Presidents had not met. He noted
the economic relationship between the two countries was
strong with considerable investment in both directions. He
said the counter-terrorism and military-to-military
relationships were excellent (he noted the Spanish military
was a customer for sophisticated U.S. weapons systems, to the
chagrin of countries such as France). He said that despite
the picture presented in the press, the bilateral
relationship had strengthened in recent years. He noted the
September 11, 2001, attacks in the U.S. and the March 11,
2004, terrorist attacks in Madrid had given an impetus to
information-sharing. Moratinos said both countries behaved
as strong and loyal allies. In this regard he specifically
mentioned U.S. intelligence-sharing when a Spanish fishing
boat was captured by Somali pirates in April. Moratinos
added that he had very good personal relations with Secretary
Rice. He said there were many areas of foreign affairs where
Spain and the U.S. could work together.


14. (C) Asked by Rep. Sires if the economic crisis would
affect Spain,s counter-terrorism efforts, Moratinos said the
economic crisis was affecting everyone and the main actors
needed to work together to fix the problem. Nevertheless, he
said it would not affect Spain fight against terrorism.
Moratinos noted that Spain was working towards a goal of 0.7
percent of GDP for development assistance. He suggested the
U.S. should increase its spending in that area.


15. (C) Turning to Afghanistan, Moratinos said Spain would be
a loyal ally in the fight against the Taliban. Rep. Woolsey
expressed the hope that the allies would not simply fall into

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a strictly military solution in Afghanistan, noting the need
for alternative development and counter-narcotics solutions.
Moratinos described Spain,s "democratic" decision to
withdraw its troops from Iraq in 2004. He lamented the U.S.
had not respected this democratic decision. He noted Spain
had continued to provide assistance in Iraq and to offer
judicial training via the EU. He said Spain looked forward
to engaging with the new U.S. Administration on Iraq, and
added that Spain had never closed its embassy there.
Moratinos said Spain viewed Afghanistan as a different case
than Iraq because the invasion there had a legal basis and
the need to use force was apparent. He described Spain,s
efforts in Afghanistan including the PRT in Qal-i-Naw, a
contingent in Herat, and the Spanish military training teams
(OMLTs). He said Spain was second only to the U.S. in number
of casualties it had suffered in Afghanistan. He said Spain
knew the price but would maintain its commitment. As far as
increasing that commitment, Moratinos said Afghanistan needed
not only troops but development and a "social strategy." He
noted Spain was working with the UAE and Poland on an
agricultural project in AfQnistan. He urged the importance
of alternative development projects for Afghanistan and the
2009 elections.


16. (C) Rep. Gingrey noted that conditions in Iraq had
improved markedly, saying that although certainly mistakes
had been made, history might judge the invasion more kindly.
Moratinos repeated that Spain was a loyal ally of the U.S.
and that the military-to-military relationship was strong.
However, he said the current U.S. President declined to see
that. Moratinos recalled his first meeting with Secretary
Rice and noted both of them had expressed strong views on
Iraq. He asserted they had agreed Spain and the U.S. needed
to move on, but said that had never happened. Moratinos said
the real challenge was the defense of Western values and that
Iran was the real problem. He noted the U.S. had done good
work on the MEPP, but the question was what role would Iran
play? He said we must be united and work together. He
questioned how it was possible that the President of
Uzbekistan visited the Oval Office but the President of Spain
did not. Rep. Klein stressed the need for a collective
carrot and stick approach in dealing with Iran. He noted
U.S. engagement with Iran was limited; therefore our
sanctions had limited effect. A collective approach was key.
Moratinos opined that engagement with Syria would help
isolate Iran. He noted Iran,s influence in Gaza via Hamas,
in Lebanon via Hezbollah, in Pakistan, and in Iraq, saying
Iran took advantage of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Moratinos
insisted the Arab-Israeli conflict was ripe for progress. He
mentioned favorably a recent speech by Shimon Peres at the
UN. The world, Moratinos said, was changing. Regarding
Iran, Moratinos said the international community must be
united, must use a double-track and be firm if Iran did not
fulfill its commitments, and must establish dialogue with
Iran. He said the Iranian regime was stable and not subject
to change. Therefore the policy must be one of containment.
He said the regime was under some pressure and wanted
engagement with the U.S. The Iranians wanted to be
recognized as an important regional player. He suggested
Bahrain,s ideas about a collective security arrangement
might be worthwhile. Moratinos said that if Iran was not
contained, they would work through Hamas and Hezbollah to be
a "spoiler" in the Middle East.


17. (C) Asked by Rep. Richardson about his relations with
various Secretaries of State and whether the Codel should
carry away any messages, Moratinos again noted he had
excellent relations with Secretary Rice and mentioned he
hoped to see her in Washington the following week. He
mentioned he also knew Vice President-Elect Biden, former
Secretary Albright, former Assistant Secretary Susan Rice,
and "all" the Clinton Administration Middle East advisors.
Moratinos said his message to the U.S. was to focus on
European affairs, the Middle East, and Latin America.


18. (C) Regarding Europe, Moratinos noted the transatlantic
agenda had improved greatly in the last decade. He said the
EU was ever more important (e.g., Georgia, the economic
crises, etc.) and urged that the U.S. take it more seriously.
He asserted the U.S. treated the EU as a "second-tier"
partner by notQeking consensus. He said the U.S. and EU
needed to be hand-in-hand and stand together. He suggested
this was something that needed to be discussed strategically.
Moratinos said the Middle East was at a critical juncture
and was moving towards a final peace settlement. He said
both sides recognized they had wasted so much time.
Moratinos insisted the role of third parties in resolving the
conflict had changed. He recalled that Clinton
Administration Middle East negotiator Dennis Ross had
excluded him from meetings when was the EU Special Envoy.
Moratinos said he was now working informally to support
Secretary Rice,s efforts in the Middle East. He expressed

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the hope that the new U.S. Administration would realize the
roles of the U.S. and Europe could not be the same as in the
Clinton years. He again mentioned the need to contain Iran.


19. (C) On Latin America, Moratinos said the U.S. should
engage in that part of that world. He noted tQU.S. had
focused on issues such as Colombia, Cuba, and Mexico, but had
not paid broader attention to development in Latin America.
He noted the U.S. took a strongly inclusive position
regarding NATO expansion, but forgot Latin America.
Moratinos said Spain could not guarantee the future of Latin
America without U.S. engagement. He noted everyone praised
the creation of the EU, but this had been accomplished by
developed countries choosing to share prosperity with
less-developed neighbors via structural development funds.
Moratinos said Latin America now felt "orphaned."


20. (C) Rep. Sires asked how Spain and the U.S. could work
together to bring democracy to Cuba. He noted European
countries had encouraged the transition to democracy in
post-Franco Spain. Moratinos replied that one could ask what
the U.S. embargo had accomplished. He said the transition to
democracy in Spain owed much to European tourism during the
Franco years, which had given Spaniards a view of other
possibilities. Moratinos, saying he respected the U.S.
position, suggested something similar could happen in Cuba if
the U.S. lifted its embargo. He noted that the GOC needed to
propose change, and Spain had engaged the GOC. He said it
was of course unacceptable that political prisoners remained
but some had been released. He mentioned he had personally
helped get the Cuban spouse of a Spanish citizen released.
Rep. Sires said European investment in Cuba did not trickle
down to the people. Moratinos said Spain wanted a democratic
Cuba but differed with the U.S. on tactics. He said it was
better to be present in Cuba than to be absent. He noted
Cuba had agreed to accept foreign assistance after the recent
hurricanes and that Spain planned to open a cultural center
on the island. He said change would not come as quickly as
we desired. The Castro regime was very closed, but he
asserted U.S. policy made it even more so. He said Spain
wanted to make some cracks through which they could work. He
noted the Cubans were not easy interlocutors and were "very
complicated actors." Nevertheless, he saw a new phase
beginning without Fidel and detected a desire for change. He
added that the Catholic Church approved of Spain,s policy in
Cuba.

Comment
--------------


21. (C) The senior-level appointments accorded Codel Sires
and the length of those meetings was a clear signal that the
Government of Spain is trying to get off on the right foot
with the U.S. following our Presidential election.


22. (U) Codel Sires did not have an opportunity to clear
this cable.
AGUIRRE