DRL A/S KRAMER, PRESIDENT ALIYEV DEBATE PACE OF

C O N F I D E N T I A L BAKU 001136 SIPDIS DEPT FOR EUR/CARC, DRL- DAVID KRAMER AND WENDY SILVERMAN E.O. 12958: DECL: 12/01/2018 TAGS: PREL PGOV PHUM KDEM AJ SUBJECT: DRL A/S KRAMER, PRESIDENT ALIYEV DEBATE PACE OF POLITICAL REFORM Classified By: Ambassador Anne E. Derse, reasons 1.4 (b,d). ¶1. (C) Summary and Comment: On November 18 DRL A/S David Kramer and the Ambassador met with President Ilham Aliyev for a two-hour discussion of democracy and human rights issues. Most of the discussion centered on the deteriorating state of media freedom in Azerbaijan, including the jailed journalists and the announcement that foreign broadcasters may be removed from Azerbaijan's airwaves. A/S Kramer also raised issues of freedom of assembly and religion. The overall tone of the discussion was friendly, but Aliyev did not make any promises to remedy any of the issues raised, sticking to the line that Azerbaijan is the most democratic country in the region. The discussion strongly suggested a struggle in the government over the issue of these broadcasting closures, with hard-liners and those actively seeking to promote a public break with Washington arguing hard that the GOAJ should not let the USG push it around on "an issue of Azerbaijani law." End Summary and Comment. ¶2. (C) On November 18 Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor David Kramer and the Ambassador met with President Ilham Aliyev. Aliyev's International Relations Advisor Novruz Mammedov joined the meeting. Poor press freedom major obstacle in U.S.-AJ Relations -------------- -------------- ¶3. (C) A/S Kramer explained that the United States is looking to deepen its relations with Azerbaijan, through an intensified security dialogue, more support on Nagorno-Karabakh, and discussing changes to section 907 of the Freedom Support Act. However, issues like the possible ban on Radio Liberty and Voice of America from Azerbaijan's airwaves and the continued detention of journalists will make it harder to seek these changes. Corruption and judicial reform are also important, albeit long-term reform priorities. Freedom of the press remains front and center on the U.S. democratization agenda. ¶4. (C) President Aliyev agreed that there are good signs of the deepening of relations between the U.S. and Azerbaijan, including the recent visits of Vice President Cheney, Deputy Secretary of State Negroponte, and Secretary of Energy Bodman, and President Bush's recent letters. In discussions with these visitors Aliyev saw no difference of opinion. In general Aliyev believes freedom of the press in Azerbaijan is improving, and is not worse than in neighboring countries. The GOAJ did not shut down any television stations, as Georgia did, nor did it have poor elections as did Armenia. (Note: The GOAJ did shut down ANS TV in 2006 and since then there is no television station that takes an entirely independent editorial line. End Note.) President Aliyev personally would not like to see any journalists in jail, but they are in jail due to their crimes, and that should not affect the general positive picture of the media. &There is freedom of the press in Azerbaijan,8 he claimed. ¶5. (C) On foreign broadcasters, Aliyev believes that it is important not to politicize the issue, as they are simply bringing the situation into conformity with Azerbaijani law. The GOAJ has already removed Russian television from Azerbaijani frequencies, because Azerbaijan is an independent country. Aliyev believes such foreign broadcasts damage Azerbaijan's sovereignty, and are not found in Europe or even in Azerbaijan's neighborhood. ¶6. (C) Aliyev then explained that the GOAJ has monitored Radio Liberty and that 90 percent of its coverage is against him. While he has the highest respect for the Executive branch of the USG, he believes listening to Radio Liberty is the same as listening to Radio Iran, which spreads propaganda into the south of Azerbaijan. Furthermore, when Azerbaijan removed Russian television stations from the country, it did not ruin relations with Russia. ¶7. (C) A/S Kramer then asked why, if the law were passed in 2002, was the GOAJ only deciding to implement it now vis-a-vis RFE/RL, VOA and BBC. Aliyev responded that the GOAJ had previously acted against Russian and Turkish broadcasters. In addition, he did not want to take this step before the presidential election, as it would have been interpreted as an attack on free speech. He continued that the GOAJ will do many other things in the coming months and years to "bring Azerbaijan in accordance with international standards." He then said he was flexible on how to fix the problem, and that the GOAJ would not shut the broadcasts down entirely. This would be impossible anyway, he stated, as they always listened to these stations under the Soviet Union. ¶8. (C) A/S Kramer further explained that the announcement by the National Radio and Television Center on ending the broadcasts was viewed very poorly in Washington, and not just by DRL, and asked for negotiations in good faith on how to resolve it, without a looming deadline. Aliyev responded that this was not a signal after his election; the real "signal" was the November 13-14 Baku Energy Summit. A/S Kramer asked if Aliyev would be shutting these stations if their coverage was 90 percent positive towards him. After hesitating, Aliyev replied that he would shut them down, as it is a rule of law issue. ¶9. (C) A/s Kramer said it is not just the West that is worried about this issue: during his meeting with civil society members (septel),all of the activists raised this issue as the most important one on their agenda. Aliyev replied that he could guess who those civil society activists were, and that the reason they say they want Radio Liberty is because they want grants from the West. Aliyev said he wants to change many things that happened during the early years of Azerbaijan's independence that were wrong, and wants respect for Azerbaijan's statehood. ¶10. (C) In a final push, A/S Kramer again asked for no deadline for negotiations, stating that if GOAJ closed these radio stations at the end of the year, it would be the first thing the new U.S. administration would learn about Azerbaijan. Aliyev pushed back, asking why it is proper for foreign countries to make propaganda against him. He stated there were "two Americas," one consisting of the President and Vice President and the other which is financing NGOs. A/S Kramer responded that Radio Liberty is not producing propaganda, it produces information, and that the President and the Vice President are the same people who are funding NGOs. Any issues of content should be raised with RFE/RL management, which enforces a policy of objective, independent, unbiased reporting. A/S Kramer also asked Aliyev to issue a strong statement condemning violence against journalists which would send a clear message that these actions are not to be tolerated. Aliyev replied that he did so several years ago, and the situation is not any better in Georgia or Armenia. A/S Kramer said that attacks have increased, arguing for a need to issue a new statement (a plea A/S Kramer made during his June visit as well). Election Monitoring Center -------------- ¶11. (C) Aliyev then brought up the recent presidential elections as a clear sign of democracy in Azerbaijan, stating that even the Election Monitoring Center (EMC) confirmed the results. A/S Kramer and the Ambassador then explained to Aliyev that the threats made by Ramiz Mehdiyev against EMC on the evening before the election were unacceptable, and the manner in which he relayed them to the Ambassador was offensive to a friendly country. Aliyev seemed surprised by this news, but replied that he knew that EMC was specially created to attack him publicly, and was made up of opposition leaders, including (EMC Director) Anar Mammadli. Aliyev asked why the U.S. chose opposition people to conduct an exit poll (NOTE: EMC did not conduct an exit poll, but a PVT, during this election. End Note.) Aliyev also stated that the National Democratic Institute, which funds EMC, has always been against the GOAJ. Aliyev's view of U.S.-AJ Relations -------------- ¶12. (C) Aliyev stated that he does not have this type of conversation with other partners, only with the US. Azerbaijan's domestic situation is not worse than other countries of the former Soviet Union. Aliyev believes that the situation in Azerbaijan is not a threat to the U.S., but the threats come from the possibility of a weak government, religious extremism, and Azerbaijan's neighbors. The jailed journalists "are not worth the United States' time." He wondered what to expect from the Obama administration. ¶13. (C) Aliyev then explained that Radio Liberty publishes stories against not only him, but against national symbols. He had read an article in which Radio Liberty disapproved of Aliyev's plan to build an enormous flagpole in the Baku harbor complex, a project which would require moving "a few military installations." (NOTE: The project resulted in displacing the Navy from its headquarters. End Note.) Aliyev said that Radio Liberty suggested he plant the flagpole in Karabakh instead. Aliyev asked rhetorically what members of Azerbaijan's parliament think when they hear stories like this. Middle East and Democratization -------------- ¶14. (C) In response to A/S Kramer's explanation that the best partners to the U.S. are those that are moving in a democratic direction, Aliyev asked why one of the closest U.S allies is Saudi Arabia, and why the U.S. did not recognize the election of Hamas in the Palestinian territories. The U.S. has lost position in the Arab world because of "attempts to democratize kings" and "democracy is not possible in that part of the world." Aliyev stated that Iraq is in a worse position now than it was under Saddam Hussein, because it is divided and hundreds of thousands of people have died; A/S Kramer strongly challenged Aliyev's views. ¶15. (C) Aliyev stated that the average citizen of Azerbaijan, by comparison, supports him and all of his policies because they live in peace and have jobs. Aliyev believes the average Azerbaijani doesn't feel the war in Georgia nor the world financial crisis. Therefore the U.S. cannot tell the GOAJ what to do, as they do not want a strong Azerbaijan as much as he does. If that were the case, Aliyev believes he would not have won 89 percent of the vote. The level of democracy now in Azerbaijan is the maximum that can be achieved. Freedom of Assembly -------------- ¶16. (C) In response to the Ambassador's question on freedom of assembly, Aliyev stated there was no problem with this, as people can assemble in any of the specially designated areas. In addition, he stated that people have no reason to rally. Aliyev says the old opposition is disorganized and the new opposition is weak. Moreover, the opposition leaders have a good life, as they get to meet foreign representatives and go to receptions, but they have never worked a day in their lives. Freedom of Religion -------------- ¶17. (C) In response to A/S Kramer's question on forced beard shavings, Aliyev replied that the number of beards in Azerbaijan is growing and it is a very dangerous situation, but noted it is not the GOAJ's policy to forcibly shave beards. Regarding the Abu Bakr mosque, which was the site of a grenade attack on August 18, Aliyev said the authorities had arrested a couple dozen people, and while this may have been excessive, it is better to save time, and those that want to harm Azerbaijan will be punished. The mosque will probably be re-opened but we have to wait and see, as threats on the Imam's life continue and neighbors complain about the mosque. Three Requests -------------- ¶18. (C) A/S Kramer concluded the meeting by repeating his three main requests of Aliyev: freeing the three journalists; a presidential statement condemning violence against journalists; and continuing foreign broadcasts. Aliyev said that if negotiations of the foreign broadcasters are in good faith, there would be no need to take them off the air immediately. He said there might be a compromise solution of reducing the current number of four broadcasters (Radio Liberty, Voice of America radio, Voice of American TV, and BBC) to a smaller number, starting with VOA TV. Comment -------------- ¶19. (C) The fact that Aliyev engaged in a lively and often difficult discussion of democracy and human rights issues for two hours was a welcome sign in an otherwise bleak picture on these issues since his re-election. While the message from A/S Kramer was clear, Aliyev did not make any promises to resolve the issues raised. It was also clear from the discussion that Aliyev has very poor information on a number of issues, including the content and audience of Radio Liberty and the activities of NGOs including EMC. He seemed stunned when A/S Kramer told him that back in August Presidential advisor Ali Hasanov during a visit in Washington promised the release of the detained journalists immediately after the election. &He had no business or authority to promise such a thing,8 Aliyev responded angrily. The discussion strongly suggested there is a struggle in the government over the issue of these broadcasting cosures, with hard-liners and those actively seekig to promote a public rift with Washington arguing hard that the GOAJ should not let the USG push it around on "an issue of Azerbaijani law." ¶20. (C) The USG should continue to take every opportunity to hammer home in blunt terms the message of USG redlines on keeping the foreign broadcasts on the air in all bilateral channels and all meetings with the relevant GOAJ interlocutors, but hold off on further condemnatory public reactions as the BBG, expected in Baku in early December, addresses the legal issues (FonMin Mammadyarov reiterated to the Ambassador on November 27 that he is working internally to resolve the radio issue, and asks again that the USG not take the matter to the press, but have the BBG talk to the NRTC.) END COMMENT. ¶21. (U) Assistant Secretary Kramer has cleared this cable. DERSE