MAY 27 - JUNE 5, 2007 VISIT BY U.S. COMMISSION ON

C O N F I D E N T I A L RIYADH 001787 SIPDIS SIPDIS DEPT PLEASE PASS TO NEA/ARP FOR RJACHIM/SRAMESH AND DRL/IRF FOR AGOMBIS E.O. 12958: DECL: 08/25/2027 TAGS: PHUM KIRF KISL PGOV PINR PTER SA SUBJECT: MAY 27 - JUNE 5, 2007 VISIT BY U.S. COMMISSION ON INTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM TO SAUDI ARABIA REF: A. JEDDAH 00279 ¶B. RIYADH 01767 ¶C. RIYADH 01074 Classified By: Charge d'Affaires Michael Gfoeller for reasons 1.4 (B) a nd (D). ¶1. (C) SUMMARY: Members and staff of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) visited the Kingdom from May 27 to June 5, 2007, traveling to Jeddah (Ref A), Dhahran, and Riyadh. Describing itself as independent -- but part of the USG, the Commission met with SAG ministries and agencies, as well as with Saudi intellectuals and educators. Several of the Commission,s interlocutors agreed that crises such as the war in Iraq and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict set the stage for intolerant thinking, adding that extremists exploit these conflicts to further their own agenda. These officials noted that the SAG,s re-education program has been successful and said strong Government engagement with the Kingdom,s imams is paying dividends in terms of greater tolerance. ¶2. (C) SUMMARY CONTINUED: The Commission,s interlocutors also agreed that much progress has been made relating to religious freedom, most of which has been led by the ruling family. They noted that the King must balance reform against the wishes of the Saudi public, as well as considering the goals of extremists. All stated that private worship by non-Muslims is the Government,s policy, but added that public worship is unrealistic and could have extremely detrimental consequences at this stage. Interlocutors pointed to increasing criticism of the religious police, as well as greater accountability for the regular police, as evidence of the SAG,s progress in facilitating a more open society. END SUMMARY. ¶3. (C) USCIRF members and staff visited the Kingdom from May 27 to June 5, 2007, traveling to Jeddah (Ref A),Dhahran, and Riyadh. USCIRF last visited Saudi Arabia in March 2001. The Commission met with the Ministries of Foreign Affairs (MFA), Interior (MOI),Culture and Information (MOCI),and Islamic Affairs (MOIA),as well as the HUMAN RIGHTS Commission (HRC) (Ref B),National Society for HUMAN RIGHTS (NSHR),local intellectuals and educators. Most of USCIRF,s interlocutors agreed that dialogue is beneficial, although there was some resentment about what is perceived to be the USG,s "motivation" and "interference" in furthering religious freedom and democracy. ¶4. (C) The SAG did not approve requests for meetings with the King, Ministries of Justice (MOJ),Education (MOE),and Higher Education (MOHE),or the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV),and the King Abdul Aziz Center for National Dialogue. -------------- ATMOSPHERICS -------------- ¶5. (C) USCIRF Chair Felice Gaer described the Commission to interlocutors as independent but part of the USG. She emphasized that USCIRF focuses on HUMAN rights, including religious freedom, consequently, many of the discussions with SAG officials covered HUMAN RIGHTS in general rather than just religious freedom issues. ¶6. (C) MOIA Minister Saleh bin Abdul Aziz bin Mohammad Al-Shaikh told the Commission that direct dialogue with groups such as USCIRF is useful, and MOCI Minister Dr. Iyad bin Ameen Madani emphasized that it is simplistic for visitors to ignore the diversity within the Kingdom. Madani urged the Commission to be culturally sensitive, explaining that Saudis represent a spectrum of beliefs from extremely conservative to very liberal. He pointed out that Saudi society is imperfect but claimed that it is neither single-minded nor dogmatic. ¶7. (C) MOI Deputy Minister Dr. Ahmed Al-Salam questioned why Saudi Arabia is designated as a Country of Particular Concern, noting that this puts it in "the same category as North Korea and China." While he said several of his SAG colleagues approve of dialogue with groups such as USCIRF, Al-Salam questioned the point if the dialogue fails to change perceptions. He emphasized the importance of understanding Saudi culture, society, and history, adding that Saudi Arabia,s sovereignty and dignity must be respected. Al-Salam stated that the USG should not "classify" Saudi Arabia or put it on lists, explaining that such reports are not helpful. ¶8. (C) Al-Salam agreed that the Commission should visit the Kingdom in order to learn more about Saudi Arabia. However, he expressed anger at what he termed negative treatment by the U.S. of "a friendly country that wants to help the U.S." Al-Salam continued that a Saudi would sacrifice everything for his dignity, insisting that now people reject anything that is from the U.S. or American. -------------- TEXTBOOKS AND INTOLERANT LANGUAGE -------------- ¶9. (C) Several of the Commission,s interlocutors provided their views on the issue of textbook reform. MFA Assistant Minister Prince Turki Al-Kabeer stressed that the MFA has no jurisdiction over issues relating to religious freedom or textbook reform efforts but noted that he is a member of the committee that reviews textbooks from all over the Kingdom. MOIA Minister Al-Shaikh also said his Ministry has no connection with the educational process in the Kingdom. Culture and Information Minister Madani confirmed that Saudi textbooks are continually reviewed and revised, noting that there is much political pressure -- especially since 9/11 -- to do so. He said that although religion is part of the standard, mandatory curricula in Saudi public schools, these are not religious schools, adding that there is no forced study of religion. (COMMENT: Religious study is mandatory in Saudi schools. To say that it is not "forced" is somewhat disingenuous. END COMMENT.) ¶10. (C) In response to concerns that such texts also contain intolerant language regarding Shi,a, Al-Kabeer demanded evidence that this kind of discrimination exists in either SAG textbooks or schools. He continued that textbooks should not teach Saudis to hate and that Saudis must be taught to respect others. Both Al-Kabeer and Madani claimed that textbooks containing intolerant language did not come from the Saudis -- saying that intolerant and hateful thoughts and ideas are not Saudi. They both blamed members of the Muslim Brotherhood who had come to Saudi Arabia to teach, saying they perpetuated intolerant attitudes. Al Kabeer told USCIRF that the SAG had stopped these individuals from teaching but had not fired them. (COMMENT: Many of Post,s interlocutors -- including Saudis, other diplomats, and representatives of international organizations -- agree that teachers, not textbooks, are the biggest problem in teaching intolerance (Ref C). END COMMENT.) ¶11. (C) Madani insisted that circumstances perpetuate hatred, not textbooks, adding that Islam is not to blame for intolerant individuals. He also pointed to "Israeli oppression of Palestinians" for creating social and political reasons for intolerance. Al-Kabeer echoed Madani's statements by saying that extremists, including those who trained or fought in Afghanistan, perpetuate hatred, intolerance, and terrorism. He added that extremists use the Israeli/Palestinian and Iraq conflicts to brainwash young men and encourage hatred. They confuse religion with politics, he said, and use religion to control the misguided. ¶12. (C) Al-Kabeer explained that the SAG checks all literature distributed by Saudi embassies, claiming that no one knew that materials distributed by their Islamic Affairs sections contained intolerant language. However, once the SAG became aware of this fact, said Al-Kabeer, it moved to stop the distribution of such materials and destroyed them, adding that the embassies, Islamic Affairs sections are now temporarily closed so that they can be reorganized. ¶13. (C) MOIA,s Al-Shaikh said the SAG did not develop the materials in Saudi embassies, Islamic Affairs sections, stating that this was done by individuals and volunteers -- although after 9/11, the SAG has had more control over contributors, who must be approved by MOIA and MFA. Al-Shaikh continued that the Ministry of Culture and Information supervises the production of these materials, as well as reviews and approves the texts. Minister Al-Shaikh promised to talk to Minister Madani about this issue. -------------- TERRORISM/EXTREMISM -------------- ¶14. (C) Turning to the ongoing threat of terrorism, Al-Kabeer stressed that Saudi Arabia has been going through a critical period for the last four years and has had more than 30 terrorist attacks. However, he added, many people have been arrested for terrorism and more than 700 re-educated. He described these young men as generally nave, saying they have often failed in education and usually have family and psychological problems. After they have been re-educated, said Al-Kabeer, the SAG gives these individuals jobs and marries them off, emphasizing that the Government is on the right track with this program. He added that the SAG is also controlling how Saudi charities distribute funds because they were misused to finance terrorists. ¶15. (C) MOCI Minister Madani said that MOI believes young people are attracted to radicalism because they lack information. He agreed that these "ignorant people" should be educated, not punished, describing how respected scholars are employed to teach people how to recognize the fallacies of radicalism. He added that the SAG works with the families of extremists to create support networks, saying this approach is yet another way to fight terrorism. ¶16. (C) MOI Deputy Minister Al-Salam stated that if an imam calls for violence or hate, it is considered a security issue and investigated like any other crime. Al-Shaikh said mosques deliver the anti-terrorism message by imposing psychological pressure on imams. He said MOIA engages in a three-step process to re-educate intolerant imams. First, in direct public meetings that are also broadcast on television, the Minister or Deputy Minister negotiates with imams. Second, in private meetings, seven Islamic scholars from the 13 provinces negotiate with imams. As a last resort, the Ministry fires imams. He said that hundreds of imams were disciplined after 9/11, but now two or three months pass without any problematic remarks. (NOTE: Per ConGen Jeddah reporting on mosque sermons, there continue to be intolerant remarks during these sermons. However, there are ever fewer such incidents. END NOTE.) ¶17. (C) Al-Shaikh continued that MOIA began to requalify and retrain imams a year ago. He said there are two courses for them that are conducted by special centers -- not by the Ministry. The courses include rhetoric, speech, and psychology and introduce imams to new and different ideas. Although there have been some good results, Al-Shaikh warned that it takes a long time to convince people to change the way they think. ¶18. (C) Al-Salam agreed that the SAG has been very successful in combating terrorism, describing it as a criminal issue -- not political or religious. He said MOI has been careful to adhere to the Qur'an, which calls for punishing only the guilty. He said the SAG is also careful to balance the rights of criminals, as well as those of their victims, adding that MOI has a very successful awareness-raising program in prisons and detention centers. Al-Salam said that carefully selected imams conduct this training, noting that its success is evident from the fact that there are now "fewer police cars patrolling the streets and fewer check points." -------------- ISLAM -- GENERAL -------------- ¶19. (C) Discussing Islam in general, MOCI Minister Madani told the Commission that Saudi religious scholars are no longer unquestioned and taboos are being dismantled. He emphasized that King Abdullah's leadership has been very instrumental but noted that these changes are part of a social process in which all Saudis participate. He described Islam as "unstructured" and said Saudi society is "simple and quite egalitarian." ¶20. (C) MOIA,s Al-Shaikh agreed that Saudis do not have an interpretation of the Qur,an other than what the Qur,an and Hadiths say. He emphasized that everyone has a choice whether to believe in Islam, adding that the SAG does not force anyone to embrace Islam. He said the right to freedom of worship is "guaranteed" in Saudi Arabia, including for non-Muslims. ¶21. (C) However, Al-Shaikh then said that the Qur,an states there can be no other religion in the Arabian Peninsula except Islam. He quoted the Prophet as saying that non-Muslims cannot come near the two holiest mosques, therefore, there can be no public places of worship for any religion other than Islam in the Kingdom. Al-Shaikh agreed with Madani, Al-Salam, and HUMAN RIGHTS Commission members that there is no restriction on private non-Muslim worship, warning that if the SAG allowed non-Muslim public places of worship, its legitimacy would be questioned. This is not a political or social decision, said Al-Shaikh, Muslim scholars throughout the world insist on this. ¶22. (C) Al-Shaikh said there are 72,000 mosques in Saudi Arabia that employ 120,000 people as imams, preachers, and in other jobs. All mosque imams are not full-time employees -- many have other jobs -- the Ministry pays between 2,000 and 3,000 Saudi Riyals per month to imams (NOTE: Some imams also use their MOIA salary to hire foreign imams, so not all imams are MOIA employees. END NOTE). The Supreme COUNCIL of Ulema is not officially part of the SAG or MOIA, he said, but it is "linked" to the King. Ulema are independent, as are the imams of the two holiest mosques, and receive instructions directly from the King. However, those ulema who are hard-liners and have unacceptable views about religious minorities are counseled. -------------- NON-MUSLIMS, RIGHT TO WORSHIP -------------- ¶23. (C) MFA,s Al-Kabeer pointed out that Saudi Arabia is a "developing country" and emphasized that there is no law restricting the entry of non-Muslims into the Kingdom. He continued that there is no law prohibiting non-Muslims from performing their religious duties in their own homes and in their own way. He added that foreigners in the Kingdom have the right to private worship and religious materials, saying "no one comes in the middle of the night to arrest them." (NOTE: There have been fewer incidents of such arrests during the past year. END NOTE.) While Saudis and the SAG respect non-Muslims, he insisted, non-Muslims must also respect Muslims. ¶24. (C) In response to the suggestion that it is insufficient for the SAG to allow private worship only in homes, MOI,s Al-Salam countered that "asking the SAG to permit the construction of churches or temples in the Kingdom is comparable to asking the Vatican to allow the construction of a mosque in Vatican City." He emphasized that Saudi Arabia is the home of Islam's two holiest mosques, adding that foreigners must respect Saudi laws and customs. He continued that the SAG cannot allow foreigners to disrupt Saudi society, saying it cannot act contrary to the wishes of the Saudi people. He predicted serious, negative consequences if the SAG did so. -------------- DISCRIMINATION -------------- ¶25. (C) USCIRF,s interlocutors also discussed discrimination of the Kingdom,s religious minorities -- especially the Shi,a. Al-Salam told the Commission that approximately ten percent of Saudis are Shi'a, adding that, "like all minorities, they claim discrimination just like blacks and Hispanics complain about discrimination in the U.S." (NOTE: Al-Salam lived in the U.S. for eleven years and studied economics at the University of California at Santa Barbara. END NOTE.) ¶26. (C) Minister Al-Shaikh said the Kingdom,s Shi,a have their own people who are responsible for Shi,a mosques and endowments. Shi,a mosques are not registered with the MOIA, he said, adding that Shi,a do not want to have their mosques supervised by the MOIA. Although there is no administrative relationship between MOIA and the Shi,a, Al-Shaikh said that if Shi,a need help, such as acquiring land or buildings, the Ministry will respond. (COMMENT: Most Shi,a do not want an administrative relationship between them and MOIA. MOIA involvement would likely bring supervision of Shi,a imams, the elimination of Shi,a motifs from mosques, etc. Additionally, the SAG has historically been an impediment to the approval for construction of Shia, mosques, although the situation has improved. END COMMENT.) ¶27. (C) MOCI Minister Madani claimed no one has been either hired or fired on the basis of religion, pointing out that most foreign workers in the Kingdom are not Muslim. He continued that there is no tradition or history of violence in Saudi Arabia due to differences in religion. While Madani admitted the necessity for greater political participation, more freedom of religion, more tolerance, and more accountability, he insisted that this is an ongoing process. He pointed out the importance of balancing reform against facilitating social stability in what he described as this "very complex country." -------------- IRAQ E -------------- ¶28. (C) Several of USCIRF,s interlocutors pointed to regional crises -- particularly the war in Iraq -- as a tool used by extremists to further their aims. MOI Deputy Minister Al-Salam warned USCIRF against trying to impose values on the Saudis, such as religious freedom and democracy, saying the U.S. failed to make Iraq a model democracy precisely because it ignored culture, society, and circumstances. MFA Assistant Minister Al-Kabeer also pointed out that U.S. efforts to promote democracy led to the crisis in Iraq and facilitated Hamas, rise to power in the Palestinian territories. ¶29. (C) Al-Salam suggested that, if the USG demands that non-Muslim be allowed to worship publicly in the Kingdom, "it is asking for civil war." He stressed that it is important to first know what Saudis want and not assume that they want what Americans want. He demanded that Americans and the USG respect Saudis, Saudi society, and the SAG, stressing that the SAG wants stability. He continued that the SAG is caught between the USG, which demands HUMAN RIGHTS such as religious freedom, and terrorists, who claim the SAG aligns itself with infidels. ¶30. (C) MOCI Minister Madani said the USCIRF visit proved that the USG is promoting a particular point of view or belief, accusing the Commission of being "a tool of U.S. foreign policy." USCIRF Chair Gaer countered that the Commission examines how countries respect universal HUMAN rights, especially the right to religion, emphasizing that human RIGHTS are not culturally relative -- but inalienable and universal. -------------- RELIGIOUS AND REGULAR POLICE -------------- ¶31. (C) Al-Salam claimed that many countries have a body analogous to the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice (CPVPV),noting that the CPVPV,s religious police monitor behavior to ensure it is ethical and to prevent sexual harassment of women. He said the CPVPV coordinates with MOI, but emphasized that the CPVPV is independent and has nothing to do with MOI police, nor does MOI have authority over the CPVPV. ¶32. (C) HRC representatives, including Chair Turki Al-Sudairy, indicated that they have met with the CPVPV President Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdullah Al-Ghaith several times. Board member Dr. Mohamed Al-Khunaizi, a Shi,a activist, agreed that there are rogue members of the CPVPV and noted that that the HRC will give lectures on HUMAN rights to the religious police. Board member Ibrahim Al-Muneef stressed that the CPVPV, which was created more than 60 years ago, has generally not been held accountable for its actions. He emphasized that the SAG has recently held the CPVPV accountable, partly due to the efforts of HRC Chair Al-Sudairy. Al-Khunaizi pointed out that it is significant that Saudis now question the religious police because previously, no one said anything if they made a mistake. ¶33. (C) Regarding the regular police, Al-Salam denied that they are not held accountable, insisting the police must protect HUMAN RIGHTS -- not violate them. He explained that MOI has several special, independent investigations units that hold the police accountable, pointing out that the police are held to a higher standard and punished severely if they commit a crime. ¶34. (C) MOI's Bureau of Prosecution and Investigation investigates complaints about prisons, which are run by the Directorate of Prisons, as well as the treatment of prisoners, said Al-Salam. He stated that abuse and torture are not acceptable, noting that both the HRC and the NSHR visit prisons. Additionally, according to Al-Salam, MOI trains the police regarding international HUMAN RIGHTS agreements, including the Convention Against Torture, although he could not provide details about the training or how many police attended. GFOELLER