INL A/S PATTERSON MEETS WITH MINISTER OF INTERIOR

C O N F I D E N T I A L BOGOTA 000870 SIPDIS SIPDIS DEPARTMENT FOR INL E.O. 12958: DECL: 02/07/2017 TAGS: KJUS PGOV PINR PREL PTER CO SNAR SUBJECT: INL A/S PATTERSON MEETS WITH MINISTER OF INTERIOR AND JUSTICE HOLGUIN REF: 06 BOGOTA 10529 Classified By: CDA Milton Drucker. Reasons: 1.4 (b) and (d) -------------- Summary -------------- ¶1. (C) In a January 30 meeting, INL A/S Anne Patterson asked Minister of Interior and Justice Carlos Holguin to continue expediting consultations with indigenous communities regarding aerial eradication in reserves. Holguin expressed frustration with the conflicting SIMCI and CNC numbers on hectares of coca under cultivation in Colombia, which made measuring progress difficult. He said the Government of Colombia is reviewing all aspects of its counternarcotics policy to look for ways to improve. Since the asset forfeiture and seizure laws were strengthened five years ago, Holguin said the GOC has seized over 4,500 assets, a dramatic improvement over past efforts. Still, he noted the process for the State to use or liquidate the assets remains slow. End summary. ¶2. (SBU) On January 30, A/S Patterson, ONDCP Deputy Director James O'Gara, INL Office Director for Latin American Programs Tony Arias, WHA/AND Director Phil French, U.S. Embassy NAS Director Julie Gianelloni Connor, and PolOff (notetaker) met with Minister of Interior and Justice Carlos Holguin. Holguin was accompanied by Vice Minister of Justice Guillermo Francisco Reyes, Ambassador to the U.S. Carolina Barco, Colombian DCM Mariana Pacheco, MFA U.S. Office Director Patricia Cortes, and Coordinator on Indigenous Issues for the Ministry of Interior and Justice, Ana Maria Ospina. -------------- -------------- Eradication Status in Reserves and National Parks -------------- -------------- ¶3. (C) Holguin said the narcos' change of strategy in using indigenous reserves to grow coca started five years ago. He asserted the percentage of coca being grown in national parks and reserves is small compared to the overall coca hectarage in Colombia. (Laws on spraying in national parks are considerably more restrictive than the rules for spraying in indigenous reserves.) Holguin noted initial figures show that, in the departments of Putumayo and Cauca, 1,007 hectares and 38 hectares, respectively, were being cultivated in parks and reserves. ¶4. (C) Patterson thanked Holguin for the Ministry of Interior and Justice's (MoIJ) prompt response to her comments at their last meeting (reftel) concerning the need to expedite the consultative process or "consultas" before conducting aerial eradication in indigenous reserves. Holguin said the MoIJ had recently done two "consultas," one in Putumayo and one in Caqueta. The response of the indigenous populations was positive. He said the MoIJ still needed to conduct 13 more "consultas" by early August. He explained that part of the delay in beginning eradication in indigenous reserves was that once the "consulta" is completed the National Council on Dangerous Drugs or (Consejo Nacional de Estupefacientes or CNE) has to approve the start of eradication operations. Holguin noted that the CNE has been slow in approving the spraying. ¶5. (C) Turning to National Parks, ONDCP Deputy Director James O'Gara asked if more eradication was expected in the near future. Holguin responded that manual eradication efforts in La Macarena National Park left 27 people dead, and those deaths prompted President Uribe to approve aerial eradication. However, the MoIJ still needed to resolve several "disagreements" with the Ministry of Environment, including a case that the Ministry of the Environment launched against the CNE and the Colombian National Police for carrying out aerial eradication in the park. He noted that despite improving relations with the Ministry of Environment, coordination remained a difficult process. -------------- -------------- Conflicting Numbers and GOC Coordination Still Problematic -------------- -------------- ¶6. (C) Holguin expressed frustration with the conflicting numbers between the USG's Crime and Narcotics Center (CNC) and the information from the UN's Integrated Monitoring System for Illicit Cultivation (SIMCI) on hectares of coca under cultivation in Colombia. He also noted the critics' failure to differentiate between hectares fumigated versus eradicated, which was creating further confusion on GOC's actual efforts and results. Therefore, measuring progress was difficult and the whole program is being criticized based on one metric. ¶7. (C) Holguin emphasized how important it was for the GOC to better manage and improve its own coordination efforts on this issue. For example, in recent years, the Ministry of Environment had paid for several studies that focused on the negative effects of spraying; therefore, Holguin said he is in discussions with the Ministry to have it focus more on the harmful effects caused by the chemicals used to cultivate and process coca, particularly the harmful effect such chemicals used have on the tropical forests/jungles and on how coca cultivation and cocaine processing slowly destroy the surrounding environment. -------------- -------------- Asset Forfeiture and Seizure Successes but More Needed -------------- -------------- ¶8. (C) Since the asset forfeiture and seizure laws were strengthened five years ago, Holguin said there have been 474 rulings compared to five rulings during the twenty years prior to the changes. From those 474 rulings, 4,500 assets in rural and urban areas have been seized. He noted, however, the process for the State to obtain and use or liquidate the assets is still slow. For example, the State still does not have title to the assets of Medellin kingpin Carlos Lehder, who was extradited to the U.S. 20 years ago. Moreover, the Prosecutor General's Office (Fiscalia),which should be involved in seizing the fields of landowners who cultivate coca, has limited personnel and resources and cannot manage all the cases. If the land is not seized, the farmers will continue to grow more coca. Therefore, Holguin considered the Fiscalia to be one of the main bottlenecks of this process, and he believes more resources are needed to attack the problem. ¶9. (C) Holguin noted difficulties in dealing with land titling and third parties of "good faith" or "testaferros" (sham owner) issues. He explained that the idea would be to place the responsibility on "testaferros" to prove their innocence or "good faith." Vice Minister of Justice Reyes mentioned the plan was to reform five articles in the asset forfeiture and seizure law that could address such issues as dealing with "testaferros," procedures for seizure of properties, the responsibilities and legal obligations of co-owners, and the administration and productivity of the assets seized. Despite challenges, Holguin noted that under the Uribe Administration asset forfeiture has increased tremendously. Patterson concurred, saying the improvement in forfeiture of assets is another metric that the USG can show to the U.S. Congress as a measure of success in Colombia. -------------- Precursor Chemicals -------------- ¶10. (C) Patterson noted that during her last visit (reftel), Holguin had been concerned by illegal precursor chemicals entering Colombia from Mexico and other countries. She noted she has been discussing this and other issues with Mexican officials. She also expressed hope that Colombia and Mexico can increase cooperation on counternarcotics issues and pointed to the recent extradition of several Mexican kingpins to the U.S. as a positive development. -------------- Clinton List No Longer as Effective -------------- ¶11. (C) O'Gara asked whether the Clinton List is as effective as a counternarcotics tool as it was five years ago. Holguin said that, while the Clinton List is still valuable, it was making it difficult for the GOC to administer forfeited and seized assets. Since these assets appear on the list, there is no bank or provider that will provide services to the seized companies, which makes it very difficult to administer the assets. Holguin suggested that the assets be removed from the Clinton List once they are seized by the GOC. O'Gara noted what a powerful tool the Clinton List was in the Rodriguez Orejuela case. Holguin agreed, but noted that the GOC needs more flexibility in order to better manage the assets. ¶12. (C) Asked about the disposition of the proceeds from seized assets, Holguin explained that the GOC has to maintain the assets turned over to the State in the same condition in which the GOC received them until a court orders forfeiture. Once the State gets title through the forfeiture process, the State plans to use rural assets in agrarian reform programs, while urban assets will be sold through auction, with the resulting money used for the construction and renovation of prisons. Holguin said President Uribe has determined that the USD 50 million in cash and gold recently found in "caletas" (caches) in Cali will be used for housing programs in Cali. -------------- Request for USG Flexibility -------------- ¶13. (C) Holguin asked for more USG "flexibility" in allocating fumigation resources to new or emerging areas of concern. He emphasized the importance of offering farmers substitutes to discourage them from continuing to grow coca. In particular, he asked for support for the Forest Ranger (Guardabosques) program in which the GOC pays peasants to protect the rainforest instead of growing coca, and also for the Families in Action (Familias en Accion) program. Holguin thanked the USG for its support of the Justice Houses or "Casas de Justicia," and highlighted their success in bringing justice to citizens in isolated areas. ¶14. (SBU) A/S Patterson did not have the opportunity to clear this cable before her departure. DRUCKER