USCC MEETING WITH CARDINAL ZEN

C O N F I D E N T I A L HONG KONG 003066 SIPDIS NOFORN SIPDIS DEPARTMENT FOR EAP AND EAP/CM NSC FOR DENNIS WILDER E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/30/2031 TAGS: PGOV PREL PINR PHUM CH HK SUBJECT: USCC MEETING WITH CARDINAL ZEN CLASSIFIED BY: E/P ACTING SECTION CHIEF JEFF ZAISER; REASONS 1.4 (B, D) ¶1. (C) SUMMARY: IN A JUNE 25 MEETING WITH MEMBERS OF THE U.S.-CHINA ECONOMIC AND SECURITY REVIEW COMMISSION (USCC), CARDINAL JOSEPH ZEN SAID THE TWO RECENT PRC ORDINATIONS OF BISHOPS WITHOUT VATICAN APPROVAL HAD CONSTITUTED A RETURN TO THE PRACTICE OF FIFTY YEARS AGO, ALTHOUGH HE BELIEVED THE IMPETUS FOR THE ORDINATIONS CAME FROM THE RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS BUREAU (RAB) RATHER THAN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS. ZEN SAID THAT THE SITUATION OF THE CATHOLIC "UNDERGROUND" (NON-OFFICIAL) CHURCHES IN THE MAINLAND WAS "A LITTLE BETTER" AND THE YOUNGER PRIESTS TENDED TO BE "LESS OBEDIENT." HE WAS PESSIMISTIC ABOUT PROSPECTS FOR NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS BETWEEN THE MAINLAND AND THE VATICAN. IN HONG KONG, ZEN SAID THE PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES WERE FRUSTRATED AT THE COMPLETE LACK OF PROGRESS TOWARD UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE, BUT SAID THERE HAD BEEN "NO SPLIT IN STRATEGY" AMONG THE VARIOUS PRO-DEMOCRACY POLITICAL PARTIES. HE BELIEVED CHIEF EXECUTIVE DONALD TSANG REMAINED VERY POPULAR BECAUSE THE HONG KONG PEOPLE VIEWED HIM AS COMPETENT, ALTHOUGH HE OBSERVED THAT "A GOOD CATHOLIC WAS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD CHIEF EXECUTIVE." END SUMMARY. ¶2. (C) ON JUNE 25, THE VISITING DELEGATION FROM THE U.S.-CHINA ECONOMIC AND SECURITY REVIEW COMMISSION (USCC) DISCUSSED RELIGIOUS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES IN THE MAINLAND AND HONG KONG WITH CARDINAL JOSEPH ZEN, THE 74-YEAR OLD LEADER OF THE HONG KONG CATHOLIC DIOCESE. THE USCC DELEGATION INCLUDED VICE CHAIRMAN CAROLYN BARTHOLOMEW; COMMISSIONERS PATRICK MULLOY, KERRI HOUSTON, AND DANIEL BLUMENTHAL; EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR T. SCOTT BUNTON; AND SENIOR RESEARCH ANALYST FOR ECONOMICS AND TRADE PAUL MAGNUSSON. ELEVATION TO CARDINAL -------------- ¶3. (C) TOLD THAT POPE BENEDICT HAD COMMENTED THAT THE CHINESE AMBASSADOR TO ROME WAS "FURIOUS" WHEN THE APPOINTMENT OF ZEN AS CARDINAL WAS ANNOUNCED IN FEBRUARY, ZEN NODDED, ADDING THAT THE PRC GOVERNMENT HAD ORDERED CHINA'S CATHOLIC PRIESTS NOT TO SEND HIM ANY CONGRATULATORY MESSAGES. WHEN THE COMMISSIONERS DESCRIBED THE LIMITATIONS PLACED ON THEIR VISIT TO THE PRC, AS WELL AS BEIJING'S REQUEST THAT THEY NOT MEET WITH PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES IN HONG KONG, ZEN AGAIN NODDED, OBSERVING THAT THEY HAD DONE THE SAME WITH THE PREVIOUS VISIT OF THE U.S. COMMISSION ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. HE ALSO NOTED THAT THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT "DID NOT TALK TO HIM, DID NOT KNOW HOW TO TALK TO HIM, AND DID NOT DARE TO TALK TO HIM." PRC BISHOPS -------------- ¶4. (C) ZEN SAID THAT THE TWO RECENT PRC ORDINATIONS OF BISHOPS WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE VATICAN HAD CONSTITUTED A RETURN TO THE PRACTICE OF FIFTY YEARS AGO AND CONTRAVENED THE EVOLUTION OF RELATIONS SINCE THAT TIME. HE BELIEVED THE IMPETUS FOR THE ORDINATIONS CAME FROM THE RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS BUREAU (RAB) RATHER THAN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS, WHOM HE BELIEVED WERE NOT "ACTIVELY" BEHIND THE DECISION. ZEN OBSERVED THAT VICE CHAIRMAN LIU BAINIAN OF THE RAB, WHOM HE SAID WAS BEHIND THE APPOINTMENT OF THE TWO, WAS A LAYMAN YET HAD HIGHER RANKING THAN ALL OF THE MAINLAND BISHOPS. FURTHERMORE, HE CLAIMED THAT THE RAB HAD PROMULGATED A RUMOR THAT ZEN HAD BEEN APPOINTED BY THE POPE WITHOUT THE ACCEPTANCE OF BEIJING, WHICH HE SAID WAS NOT TRUE. THE RAB, HOWEVER, HAD NOT ANTICIPATED THE STRENGTH OF THE VATICANS REACTION TO THE BISHOP ORDINATIONS. NOW, HOWEVER, THOSE TWO BISHOPS HAD WRITTEN TO THE POPE AND ZEN SEEMED HOPEFUL THAT A WAY COULD BE FOUND TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM. HE SAID MORE THAN 85 PERCENT OF PRC BISHOPS WERE RECOGNIZED BY THE VATICAN, MOST HAD BEEN APPROVED BY THE POPE PRIOR TO THEIR ORDINATION, AND THE OFFICIAL CHURCHES IN THE PRC WERE GETTING "SOME GOOD BISHOPS AND PRIESTS." BISHOPS WHO WERE NOT APPROVED BY THE POPE WERE NOT ACCEPTED BY THE PEOPLE OR BY CATHOLIC PRIESTS. PRC CHURCHES -------------- ¶5. (C) ZEN SAID THERE WERE NO NEW DEVELOPMENTS CONCERNING THE CATHOLIC "UNDERGROUND" (NON-OFFICIAL) CHURCHES IN THE MAINLAND. HE SAID "WE DON'T NEED TO BE TOO WORRIED" ABOUT THEM, BECAUSE THEIR SITUATION WAS "A LITTLE BETTER" AND THEIR PRIESTS WERE "USED TO GOING TO PRISON," WHILE THE PRISONS NOW WERE MOSTLY GUESTHOUSES. OVERALL, HE ESTIMATED THERE WERE ABOUT TEN MILLION CATHOLICS IN THE MAINLAND, TWICE THE OFFICIAL ESTIMATE. ZEN SAID IT WAS EASY FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO CONTROL THE CHURCH, ESPECIALLY THE OLDER PRIESTS; THE YOUNGER ONES, HOWEVER, WERE "LESS OBEDIENT." MANY OF THE PRIESTS HAD RECEIVED TRAINING OVERSEAS, INCLUDING ABOUT FIFTY IN THE U.S. AND MANY MORE IN GERMANY, BELGIUM, AND FRANCE; CURRENTLY THERE WERE MORE THAN 160 PRC PRIESTS, SEMINARIANS, AND SISTERS AT THE VATICAN. ¶6. (C) ZEN SAID HE "TRIED TO BE OPTIMISTIC" ABOUT PROSPECTS FOR NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS BETWEEN THE MAINLAND AND THE VATICAN, BUT IN FACT HE WAS PESSIMISTIC. WITHOUT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THE MAINLAND, THE CHURCH WAS UNABLE TO CARE FOR CATHOLICS IN THE PRC. BY CONTRAST, ZEN SAID THAT IN TAIWAN, WHICH MAINTAINED OFFICIAL RELATIONS WITH THE VATICAN, THERE WAS NO PROBLEM WITH RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. ON THE MAINLAND, THE GOVERNMENT CURRENTLY WAS IN "FULL CONTROL" AND IT WAS "DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE HOW THEY COULD RELINQUISH POWER." HE SAID THERE WAS MUCH HARASSMENT OF THE CHURCH IN THE MAINLAND. ALSO, WHILE IN THEORY THE CHURCH CONTROLLED ITS OWN PROPERTY, IN PRACTICE THERE WERE PROBLEMS: IN XIAN, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CHURCH HAD BEEN FORCED TO BUY BACK ITS OWN PROPERTY THAT THE GOVERNMENT PREVIOUSLY HAD SEIZED. POLITICAL REFORM IN THE PRC -------------- ¶7. (C) ASKED ABOUT THE LONG TERM PROSPECTS FOR SIGNIFICANT REFORM IN CHINA, ZEN SAID HE HOPED IT WOULD START WITH DEMOCRATIZATION WITHIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY. HE SAID THERE WERE STILL SUPPORTERS OF FORMER PRESIDENT JIANG ZEMIN IN THE NPC, INCLUDING CPPCC CHAIRMAN JIA QINGLIN. ASKED IF PRESIDENT HU JINTAO WAS MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN JIANG, ZEN SAID HU, WHO HAD APPROVED ZENS MOST RECENT TRAVEL TO SHANGHAI, WAS "DIFFERENT" FROM JIANG. THE FACT THAT THE PRC HAD BEEN ABLE TO CONTINUE POSTING HIGH ECONOMIC GROWTH RATES WAS A "MYSTERY" TO HIM, AND HE BELIEVED IT WAS "VERY DANGEROUS" TO CONTINUE WITH ECONOMIC REFORM WITHOUT POLITICAL REFORM, AS THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE EVER-INCREASING LEVELS OF CORRUPTION. CITING DENG XIAOPING'S DECLARATION THAT CHINA COULD ALLOW "SOME TO GET RICH BEFORE OTHERS," HE ASKED: "BUT WHO? PARTY MEMBERS?" ZEN BELIEVED THAT WESTERN COUNTRIES, IF UNITED, COULD "MAKE A DIFFERENCE" IN THE PRC. HE ALSO OPINED THAT THE "FAILURE OF IDEOLOGY IN CHINA WOULD NOT NECESSARILY LEAD TO RELIGION." HONG KONG DEMOCRATIZATION -------------- ¶8. (C) ZEN SAID THE PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES IN HONG KONG CURRENTLY WERE FRUSTRATED AT THE COMPLETE LACK OF PROGRESS TOWARD UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE. HE SAID THAT "THE ORDERS COME FROM BEIJING." ALTHOUGH ALLOWED BY THE BASIC LAW, IN 2004 THE NPC HAD EXCLUDED THE POSSIBILITY OF UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE FOR THE 2007 AND 2008 ELECTIONS. THE CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM PACKAGE PROPOSED BY THE HONG KONG GOVERNMENT AND BLOCKED BY THE LEGCO DEMOCRATS IN DECEMBER 2005 HAD "IN NO WAY" REPRESENTED PROGRESS TOWARD UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE. SINCE THEN, ZEN SAID THERE HAD BEEN "NO SPLIT IN STRATEGY" AMONG THE VARIOUS PRO-DEMOCRACY POLITICAL PARTIES. MORE RECENTLY, ZEN SAID THE ANNUAL JUNE 4 CANDLELIGHT VIGIL HAD BEEN RELATIVELY SMALL (44,000 PARTICIPANTS, ACCORDING TO THE ORGANIZERS) BUT IT WAS IMPORTANT. NEVERTHELESS, WITH A PRO-GOVERNMENT MAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (LEGCO),THE GOVERNMENT COULD ENACT HARMFUL LEGISLATION; FOR EXAMPLE, ZEN SAID THAT FROM THE YEAR 2010 THE CHURCH WOULD LOSE CONTROL OF THE CATHOLIC SCHOOLS IN HONG KONG. (NOTE: ZEN WAS REFERRING TO THE EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL ENACTED IN JULY 2004, WHICH REQUIRES PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS TO ESTABLISH SCHOOL MANAGEMENT COMMITTEES. END NOTE.) HE ALSO MENTIONED THE "PUBLIC ORDER LAWS" THAT HAD BEEN ABOLISHED BEFORE HONG KONGS 1997 REVERSION BUT NOW HAD BEEN REVIVED, REQUIRING ANYONE PLANNING A PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION TO OBTAIN A PERMIT. HE ALSO BELIEVED CHANGES IN OWNERSHIP OF SOME MEDIA OUTLETS ARE LEADING TO SOME DETERIORATION IN FREEDOM OF THE PRESS. ¶9. (C) ACKNOWLEDGING THAT CHIEF EXECUTIVE DONALD TSANG WAS VERY POPULAR, ZEN SAID THIS WAS BECAUSE THE HONG KONG PEOPLE VIEWED HIM AS COMPETENT. HE WRYLY OBSERVED THAT "A GOOD CATHOLIC WAS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD CHIEF EXECUTIVE." HE SAID TSANG "GETS HIS ORDERS FROM BEIJING;" HOWEVER, HE COULD INFLUENCE THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS, BUT DOES NOT. BEIJING, HE SAID, WAS "UNNECESSARILY AFRAID," AND TSANG COULD TELL THEM THERE WAS NO NEED TO BE. ¶10. (C) CARDINAL ZEN SAID HE HAS VISITED THE U.S. THREE TIMES, BUT HAS NOT HELD MEETINGS WITH USG OFFICIALS. WERE HE TO DO SO, HE BELIEVED SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY THERE WERE "FOREIGN POWERS" BEHIND HIM. ¶11. (SBU) THE USCC DELEGATION HAS CLEARED THIS CABLE. MULLINS