Identifier
Created
Classification
Origin
05VATICAN555
2005-12-13 16:50:00
CONFIDENTIAL
Embassy Vatican
Cable title:
VATICAN EXAMINES CHURCH-STATE DYNAMIC IN VENEZUELA
how-toVZCZCXRO3752 RR RUEHAO RUEHCD RUEHFL RUEHGA RUEHGD RUEHHA RUEHHO RUEHKW RUEHLA RUEHMC RUEHNG RUEHNL RUEHQU RUEHRD RUEHRG RUEHRS RUEHSR RUEHTM RUEHVC DE RUEHROV #0555 3471650 ZNY CCCCC ZZH R 131650Z DEC 05 FM AMEMBASSY VATICAN TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC 0197 INFO RUEHZL/EUROPEAN POLITICAL COLLECTIVE RUEHWH/WESTERN HEMISPHERIC AFFAIRS DIPL POSTS RUEHCV/AMEMBASSY CARACAS 0004 RUEHROV/AMEMBASSY VATICAN 0222
C O N F I D E N T I A L VATICAN 000555
SIPDIS
SIPDIS
DEPT FOR EUR/WE LARREA; WHA
E.O. 12958: DECL: 12/13/2030
TAGS: VE KIRF PHUM PREL PGOV VT
SUBJECT: VATICAN EXAMINES CHURCH-STATE DYNAMIC IN VENEZUELA
REF: A. Refs: a) Caracas 3022; b) Caracas 3262; c) Caracas 3223; d) Vatican 489; e) Vatican 508
B. A) CARACAS 3022; B) CARACAS 3262; C) CARACAS 3223; D) VATICAN 489; E) VATICAN 508; F) LARREA-MARTIN 12/9/05 EMAIL
CLASSIFIED BY: Peter Martin, Pol/Econ Chief, Vatican, State.
REASON: 1.4 (b),(d)
-----------
Summary
-----------
C O N F I D E N T I A L VATICAN 000555
SIPDIS
SIPDIS
DEPT FOR EUR/WE LARREA; WHA
E.O. 12958: DECL: 12/13/2030
TAGS: VE KIRF PHUM PREL PGOV VT
SUBJECT: VATICAN EXAMINES CHURCH-STATE DYNAMIC IN VENEZUELA
REF: A. Refs: a) Caracas 3022; b) Caracas 3262; c) Caracas 3223; d) Vatican 489; e) Vatican 508
B. A) CARACAS 3022; B) CARACAS 3262; C) CARACAS 3223; D) VATICAN 489; E) VATICAN 508; F) LARREA-MARTIN 12/9/05 EMAIL
CLASSIFIED BY: Peter Martin, Pol/Econ Chief, Vatican, State.
REASON: 1.4 (b),(d)
--------------
Summary
--------------
1. (C) Holy See Country Director for Venezuela Monsignor
Thevenin (protect throughout) told us recently he saw little
change in the church-state dynamic in the country. When asked
about new archbishop of Caracas, Thevenin said he was "not a
fighter" and would not be aggressive against Chavez. Thevenin
said outspoken Cardinal Castillo Lara's "political bedfellows"
were a problem, as his association with them made him easier for
the government to attack and discredit. The Ambassador has
raised Venezuela with several top Holy See officials, pressing
the need for strong Vatican support for the Venezuelan Church
against anti-democratic governmental abuses. Most at the
Vatican remain wedded to the perspective reported in refs (d)
and (e),that as an aggressive stance did not help Venezuelan
church-state relations in the past, a more conciliatory approach
is needed now. Post appreciates continued talking points and
evidence of abuses of the Church that we can use in our
discussions here. End Summary.
--------------
New Archbishop
--------------
2. (C) Holy See Country Director for Venezuela Monsignor
Nicolas Thevenin (protect throughout) told us just before the
recent Venezuelan elections he saw little change in the
church-state dynamic in the country. When asked about new
archbishop of Caracas, Jorge Liberato Urosa Savino, Thevenin
said he was "not a fighter." According to Thevenin, if Urosa is
elected president of the bishops conference he'll try to unify
the episcopate. "If something needs to be said against the
government he'll say it, but he won't be aggressive," Thevenin
continued. He said it was not automatic that Urosa would be
created a cardinal.
--------------
Bedfellows Problematic
--------------
3. (C) When asked about the continuing public comments against
the government by Cardinal Rosalio Castillo Lara (ref b),
Thevenin said that the real problem was the cardinal's political
bedfellows. Thevenin said when Castillo was seen to be
consorting with well-known enemies of the government, it made
him easier for the government to attack and discredit. Further,
he echoed Embassy Caracas's ref (a) source, offering that these
anti-government activists may be using Castillo for their own
purposes.
--------------
Papal Meeting
--------------
4. (C) As for a Chavez meeting with the pope, ref (b) is
correct. As we have reported previously (ref d),the pope will
receive Chavez if he comes to Rome and the schedule allows.
Thevenin said there had been a lot of "back and forth" about the
possible Chavez audience in October. He insisted that one
shouldn't read anything into the fact that the two sides didn't
work out a date and time.
--------------
Comment
--------------
5. (C) The Ambassador has raised Venezuela with several top
Holy See officials including Archbishop Leonardo Sandri, chief
of the Vatican's internal operations and generally regarded as
number three in the Vatican behind the pope and secretary of
state. Most remain wedded to the perspective reported in refs
(d) and (e),that as a more aggressive stance did not help
Venezuelan church-state relations in the past, a more
conciliatory approach is needed now. We have heard little
support for Cardinal Castillo Lara here. Sandri (protect) told
the Ambassador he expected that eventually Chavez's popularity
would wane to the extent that he might be overthrown internally.
We have continued to press the case that strong Vatican support
for the Venezuelan Church against anti-democratic governmental
abuses is crucial if anything like this is ever to take place.
Post appreciates continued talking points (ref f) and evidence
of abuses of the Church that we can use in our discussions here.
ROONEY
SIPDIS
SIPDIS
DEPT FOR EUR/WE LARREA; WHA
E.O. 12958: DECL: 12/13/2030
TAGS: VE KIRF PHUM PREL PGOV VT
SUBJECT: VATICAN EXAMINES CHURCH-STATE DYNAMIC IN VENEZUELA
REF: A. Refs: a) Caracas 3022; b) Caracas 3262; c) Caracas 3223; d) Vatican 489; e) Vatican 508
B. A) CARACAS 3022; B) CARACAS 3262; C) CARACAS 3223; D) VATICAN 489; E) VATICAN 508; F) LARREA-MARTIN 12/9/05 EMAIL
CLASSIFIED BY: Peter Martin, Pol/Econ Chief, Vatican, State.
REASON: 1.4 (b),(d)
--------------
Summary
--------------
1. (C) Holy See Country Director for Venezuela Monsignor
Thevenin (protect throughout) told us recently he saw little
change in the church-state dynamic in the country. When asked
about new archbishop of Caracas, Thevenin said he was "not a
fighter" and would not be aggressive against Chavez. Thevenin
said outspoken Cardinal Castillo Lara's "political bedfellows"
were a problem, as his association with them made him easier for
the government to attack and discredit. The Ambassador has
raised Venezuela with several top Holy See officials, pressing
the need for strong Vatican support for the Venezuelan Church
against anti-democratic governmental abuses. Most at the
Vatican remain wedded to the perspective reported in refs (d)
and (e),that as an aggressive stance did not help Venezuelan
church-state relations in the past, a more conciliatory approach
is needed now. Post appreciates continued talking points and
evidence of abuses of the Church that we can use in our
discussions here. End Summary.
--------------
New Archbishop
--------------
2. (C) Holy See Country Director for Venezuela Monsignor
Nicolas Thevenin (protect throughout) told us just before the
recent Venezuelan elections he saw little change in the
church-state dynamic in the country. When asked about new
archbishop of Caracas, Jorge Liberato Urosa Savino, Thevenin
said he was "not a fighter." According to Thevenin, if Urosa is
elected president of the bishops conference he'll try to unify
the episcopate. "If something needs to be said against the
government he'll say it, but he won't be aggressive," Thevenin
continued. He said it was not automatic that Urosa would be
created a cardinal.
--------------
Bedfellows Problematic
--------------
3. (C) When asked about the continuing public comments against
the government by Cardinal Rosalio Castillo Lara (ref b),
Thevenin said that the real problem was the cardinal's political
bedfellows. Thevenin said when Castillo was seen to be
consorting with well-known enemies of the government, it made
him easier for the government to attack and discredit. Further,
he echoed Embassy Caracas's ref (a) source, offering that these
anti-government activists may be using Castillo for their own
purposes.
--------------
Papal Meeting
--------------
4. (C) As for a Chavez meeting with the pope, ref (b) is
correct. As we have reported previously (ref d),the pope will
receive Chavez if he comes to Rome and the schedule allows.
Thevenin said there had been a lot of "back and forth" about the
possible Chavez audience in October. He insisted that one
shouldn't read anything into the fact that the two sides didn't
work out a date and time.
--------------
Comment
--------------
5. (C) The Ambassador has raised Venezuela with several top
Holy See officials including Archbishop Leonardo Sandri, chief
of the Vatican's internal operations and generally regarded as
number three in the Vatican behind the pope and secretary of
state. Most remain wedded to the perspective reported in refs
(d) and (e),that as a more aggressive stance did not help
Venezuelan church-state relations in the past, a more
conciliatory approach is needed now. We have heard little
support for Cardinal Castillo Lara here. Sandri (protect) told
the Ambassador he expected that eventually Chavez's popularity
would wane to the extent that he might be overthrown internally.
We have continued to press the case that strong Vatican support
for the Venezuelan Church against anti-democratic governmental
abuses is crucial if anything like this is ever to take place.
Post appreciates continued talking points (ref f) and evidence
of abuses of the Church that we can use in our discussions here.
ROONEY