CODEL DODD MEETS AN EFFUSIVE CHAVEZ

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 CARACAS 000151

SIPDIS

NSC FOR CBARTON
USCINCSO ALSO FOR POLAD

E.O. 12958: DECL: 09/10/2014
TAGS: PREL OVIP KDEM VE
SUBJECT: CODEL DODD MEETS AN EFFUSIVE CHAVEZ


Classified By: A/DCM Abelardo A. Arias for Reason 1.4(d)

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Summary
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1. (C) Reversing course, on short notice President Hugo
Chavez decided to meet with Senators Dodd, Chafee and Nelson
and the Ambassador at Miraflores palace on January 10. An
effusive and gregarious Chavez explained his commitment to
Venezuela's poor and said his land reform plans were only
part of that commitment. The Senators probed Chavez on the
future of bilateral relations, including the possibility of a
visit to the United States. Chavez responded cautiously,
saying a visit was unlikely asserting concerns about
security. He concluded that he was nonetheless willing to
engage, perhaps starting with a meeting between the new U.S.
Secretary of State and the Venezuelan Foreign Minister.

SIPDIS
Asked about bilateral cooperation on energy, drugs and
terrorism, Chavez said the real problem was poverty. Chavez
also asserted that he was not an interventionist but instead
cooperated with other countries like Colombia and Bolivia.
End Summary.


2. (C) With two hours advance notice to the CODEL, President
Hugo Chavez changed his mind and agreed to meet with Senators
Christopher Dodd (D-CT),Lincoln Chafee (R-RI),William
Nelson (D-FL) at Miraflores on January 10. The meeting
lasted nearly two hours. Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez, who
literally said nothing during the entire meeting, and senior
members of the presidential staff, joined Chavez. The
Ambassador accompanied the CODEL. There was no press.
Chavez was gregarious and effusive throughout, and shifted to
a first name basis with Senator Dodd by the conclusion.
Senator Dodd spoke in Spanish. Senators Chafee and Nelson
spoke through an interpreter. Chavez did most of the talking.

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Bilateral Relationship and Future Cooperation: Maybe
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3. (C) Senator Dodd suggested it was in the interest of both
governments to emphasize areas of positive cooperation, such
as energy, drugs and terrorism. What could be the basis for
a positive bilateral agenda in the future? Might it include
the NGO Sumate? Chavez agreed on the importance of
emphasizing the positive. The relationship had been bad in
recent years, but he was willing to start anew. He offered a
long description of the tremendous gap between rich and poor
in Venezuela. This dichotomy, and the unwillingness of the
traditional political parties to address it, he said, led to
his entry into politics and the creation of the MVR movement.
He had an obligation to the poor and would meet his
obligation to them at whatever cost. The current land reform
efforts were part of that obligation, Chavez said.


4. (C) Senators Dodd and Chafee probed further on the future
of the U.S.-Venezuela relationship. Neither the U.S. nor
Venezuelan foreign policy was all bad. Was there a basis for
progress? Would Chavez consider an early visit to the U.S?
If they could make the offer, would he consider meeting with
members of the U.S. Congress, perhaps through the Senate
Foreign Relations Committee? Chavez responded cautiously on
the idea of a U.S. visit. His personal security was the
issue, he said. He was not convinced of his security in the
U.S., Chavez asserted, particularly in light of the fact that
some members of his security detail were not allowed visas
for the U.S. (Note: Chavez was presumably referring to the
chief of his security team who participated in his 1992 coup
attempt and is ineligible for a U.S. visas for that and other
reasons.) Chavez said there were Venezuelans in the U.S. who
called for his murder on public radio, others who engaged
with paramilitary organizations to plan his overthrow, and
former Venezuelan military officers who attempted to blow up
foreign embassies in Caracas. How would we like it if such
individuals, sought by the USG, were allowed to live in
Venezuela? There was no doubt in his mind, Chavez said, that
some elements of the USG were behind the April 2002 coup
attempt against him. All that said, Chavez asserted that he
is still willing to engage in a new bilateral relationship.
Perhaps an early meeting between the new Secretary of State
and Foreign Minister Ali Rodriguez was the way to start, he
suggested.

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Helping on Terrorism, but Poverty is the Issue
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5. (C) Senator Nelson noted that the Embassy felt we were not
getting all the cooperation we could from GOV on terrorism.
Was there more we could do on this front? Chavez suggested
that the real issue was not terrorism, but the root of all
terrorism ) poverty. Until we solved global poverty, we
would not solve global terrorism. However, he agreed that
all governments had to join in combating terrorism, and
Venezuela was cooperating. Chavez told the Senators that
given his suspicions of USG involvement in the April 2002
coup attempt, he was very suspicious of cooperating with the
CIA. He said he had, however, worked with the Colombian
government on terrorism and security cases. He asserted that
he is willing to join a political effort to negotiate peace
in Colombia, should President Uribe ask him. Chavez said he
was cooperating with all Latin American governments in their
counter-terrorism efforts.

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Chavez the Anti-American vs. Chavez the Uniter
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6. (C) Senator Chafee noted that successful U.S. political
candidates tried to be uniters, not dividers. Chavez
presided over a badly polarized country, Chafee said, and we
could understand how he believes an anti-U.S. line helps him
in the short term politically, but could he envision a more
positive approach to the U.S.? Chavez asserted that he is
not anti-American. He wants to unite, not divide, he told
the Senators. After the August 15 recall referendum, he
said, he refrained from anti-U.S. rhetoric, but the USG did
not. He knows that not all the American people agree with
U.S. foreign policy. The USG accuses him of intervention in
the internal affairs of neighboring countries, but it is not
so. He has talked to Evo Morales in Bolivia, but only at
President Mesa's request, to convince Morales to back off
violent protests on the natural gas issue. He has talked to
the FARC and ELN in the past, but only at the invitation of
former Colombian President Pastrana. Some have suggested
that he supports the Peruvian extremists who rebelled
recently against President Toledo, but he has never had any
contact with them. However, Chavez told the Senators, he
will express his regional views. For example, he said, he
believes the USG is wrong on Haiti: There is no long term
solution that does not involve Aristide in some way.

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Time to Invite the Peace Corps?
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7. (C) Senator Dodd suggested that the Peace Corps has served
in the past to bring societies together, to educate in both
the U.S. and Latin America, and to assist poor communities in
essential areas such as health and education. Dodd noted
that he, himself, served in the Peace Corps in the Dominican
Republic. Would Chavez be willing to invite the Peace Corps
to Venezuela? Chavez responded elliptically, saying he liked
the idea of more people-to-people contact. Perhaps the
governments of Latin America should consider a regional
effort to fight poverty that would include the Peace Corps,
he suggested. Ambassador noted that many Latin American
countries already had a Peace Corps presence. Chavez
reiterated that he did not dislike the American people. He
has friends in the U.S., including a nephew, Antonio, who
lives in the U.S. He said he likes Congressman Cass
Ballenger, and had enjoyed his contact with the people of
Hickory, NC while visiting the congressman. But if the
people of Hickory, NC had the same degree of poverty as
Venezuela, he claimed, they would have the same social,
economic and political problems as well. Calling poverty the
core issue, Chavez said he hoped the U.S. would join an
effort to cancel the debt of all the world's poorest nations.


8. (U) CODEL Dodd did not have the opportunity to clear this
message before its departure.
McFarland