A CONVERSATION WITH BASHIR

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 KHARTOUM 002625


E.O. DECL.: 05/29/2000
TAGS: PREL SU US
SUBJECT: A CONVERSATION WITH BASHIR


1. CONFIDENTIAL - ENTIRE TEXT.


2. PRESIDENT BASHIR AND I MET FOR OVER TWO HOURS AT HIS
HOME SUNDAY NIGHT, MAY 28. THE ONLY OTHER PERSON
PRESENT WAS GENERAL FATIH IRWAH, WHOM BASHIR WANTS TO BE
HIS AMBASSADOR IN WASHINGTON. WHEN I NOTED THAT, EXCEPT
FOR BRIEF ENCOUNTERS AT RECEPTIONS, IT HAD BEEN A YEAR
AND A HALF SINCE OUR LAST MEETING, BASHIR REPLIED THAT
DURING THAT TIME HE HAD NOT RECEIVED ANY REQUEST FROM ME
FOR A MEETING. I SAID I HAD TRIED AT LEAST TWICE TO GET
AN APPOINTMENT. HE DID NOT RESPOND WHEN I SAID THAT
PERHAPS SOMEONE HAD NOT FORWARDED MY REQUESTS.


3. BASHIR SAID, WITH REGARD TO BILATERAL RELATIONS WITH
THE U.S., "IT IS WE WHO FEEL BITTERNESS." WHEN HIS
REGIME CAME TO POWER BY OVERTHROWING A DEMOCRATICALLY
ELECTED GOVERNMENT, "WE UNDERSTOOD 513" AND WHY IT
REQUIRED A CESSATION OF ECONOMIC AID TO SUDAN.
INDICATIVE OF THE MILITARY GOVERNMENT'S DESIRE FOR GOOD
RELATIONS WITH WASHINGTON, THEY GAVE A CABINET JOB TO
GENERAL HADI MAMOUN (FYI: THE LATE MAJ. GEM. MOHAMMED
AL-HADI MAMOUN AL-MARDI. END FYI.),WHO THEY KNEW HAD A
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CIA. HE BECAME A MINISTER "EVEN
THOUGH SOME COMPLAINED." WITH BASHIR'S APPROVAL,
GENERAL MAMOUN MAINTAINED HIS TIES WITH THE STATION
CHIEF, AT ONE POINT FLYING TO EUROPE TO MEET WITH HIM
THERE.


4. BUT, BASHIR SAID, "THE U.S. ATTITUDE CONTINUALLY
ACCELERATED AGAINST US." HE HAD THOUGHT THAT MY ARRIVAL
MIGHT MEAN A "NEW BEGINNING TO RECONSTRUCT RELATIONS."
BUT INSTEAD THEY WORSENED. HE CLAIMED THAT THE GOS HAD
TRIED TO GIVE US FACTS ABOUT "THE JUBA INCIDENT" (I.E.,
IN 1992 WHEN USAID FSNS WERE EXECUTED, BUT WASHINGTON
ONLY BECAME MORE NEGATIVE. HE CITED "THE U.S. CAMPAIGN
AGAINST US" AND STATED THAT IT STEMMED FROM "A HOSTILE
ATTITUDE RATHER THAN A FACTUAL BASIS." HE THEN MADE THE
FAMILIAR COMPLAINT THAT THE U.S. HAS SINGLED OUT SUDAN
FOR CENSURE ON HUMAN RIGHTS WHILE SOFT-PEDALING
COMPLAINTS ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES, LIKE EGYPT, SAUDI
ARABIA AND "YOUR FRIEND MUSEVENI."


5. TURNING TO THE WAR IN THE SOUTH, BASHIR SAID HE HAD
INHERITED IT FROM NIMEIRY AND SADIQ. THE GOS HAD MADE
CONCESSIONS THAT NO OTHER GOVERNMENT HAD MADE; IT HAS
IMPLEMENTING A TRULY FEDERAL SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT AND
WAS NOT APPLYING SHARIA IN THE SOUTH. DESPITE THE
"NEGATIVE MILITARY CONSEQUENCES" THE GOS GAVE APPROVAL
TO OLS OPERATIONS IN THE SOUTH. HE GRUMBLED THAT EVEN
THOUGH THE SUDANESE ARMY HAS MADE GAINS AND CONTROLS
NINETY PERCENT OF THE TERRITORY IN THE SOUTH, THE OLS
CONTINUES TO SEND NINETY PERCENT OF RELIEF SUPPLIES TO
SPLA-HELD TERRITORY. THE OLS, HE CHARGED, IS FEEDING
THE SPLA.


6. SUMMING UP, BASHIR SAID, "WHATEVER WE DO, THE
OUTCOME IS MORE PRESSURE AND HOSTILITY" FROM
WASHINGTON. HE PROTESTED THAT "WE IN PRINCIPLE DO NOT
HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST THE U.S. WE WANT GOOD RELATIONS
WITH THE U.S."


7. I INITIATED MY RESPONSE BY FIRST STRESSING THAT
CONTRARY TO WHAT HIS GOVERNMENT AND TURABI SAY, THE USG
IS NOT ANTI-ISLAMIC, AND I SPELLED OUT WHY MY ASSERTION
HAS TRUE. AS FOR WHY WE HAVE FOCUSED SO MUCH NEGATIVE
ATTENTION ON SUDAN, I WENT THOUGH THE CUMULATIVE FACTORS
THAT ACCOUNT FOR THIS, NOTING THAT I HAD EXPLAINED THIS
TO HIM AND OTHERS HERE MANY TIMES. ON HUMAN RIGHTS, I
SAID IT DID SUDAN NO GOOD TO COMPARE ITS RECORD WITH
OTHERS'. SUDAN HAD TO OWN UP TO ITS PROBLEMS AND BEGIN
TO ADDRESS THEM. THE ARREST OF SADIQ AL-MAHDI AND SOME
OF HIS FOLLOWERS SOLELY BECAUSE OF SADIQ'S RECENT PUBLIC
CRITICISMS OF THE GOVERNMENT AND TURABI'S POPULAR
ISLAMIC CONFERENCE HAS A CASE IN POINT.


8. I TOLD BASHIR AND FATIH THAT SECRETARY CHRISTOPHER
IS A CAREFUL LAWYER WHO WOULD NOT TAKE A FAR-REACHING
DECISION TO PLACE SUDAN ON THE LIST OF STATE SPONSORS OF
TERRORISM UNLESS HE HAD A SOLID, FACTUAL BASIS FOR HIS
ECISION. I SAID IT HAS A FACT THAT THE PIJ, MAMAS, ABU
NIDAL ORGANIZATION, HIZBALLAH, GAMAA ISLAMIA AND OTHER
TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS HAVE OFFICES IN KHARTOUM AND
INTERACT WITH ELEMENTS OF BASHIR'S GOVERNMENT. IN
RECENT MONTHS TWO SHIPMENTS OF ARMS FROM THE IRANIANS TO
THE FIS HAD PASSED THROUGH SUDAN. THE IRANIANS HERE
HAVE DEALINGS WITH TERRORISTS, I ADDED.


9. I DEFENDED THE OLS OPERATIONS, STATING THAT THE UN
IS NEUTRAL AND ENDEAVORING ONLY TO RELIEVE THE SUFFERING
OF THE PEOPLE AFFECTED BY THE WAR. THE DISTRIBUTION OF
FOOD HAS MADE SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF ON-THE-SPOT
ASSESSMENTS OF THE NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE. THE
DISPROPORTIONATE AMOUNT OF FOOD THAT GOES TO SPLA-HELD
TERRITORY IS ACCOUNTED FOR BY THE HUGE NUMBER OF
DISPLACED SOUTHERNERS THERE, TENS OF THOUSANDS AT LABONE
FOR EXAMPLE, AS OPPOSED TO RELATIVELY FEW CIVILIANS IN
THE TOWNS HELD BY THE GOVERNMENT.


10. BASHIR DEFENDED THE DETENTION OF SADIQ. ASKING
RHETORICALLY WHETHER I HAD HEARD OF BRIGADIER ABDULAZIZ
KHALID AND HIS "ALLIANCE FORCES," HE SAID SADIQ AND
OTHERS IN THE UMMA LEADERSHIP HAD SIGNED THE
PROCLAMATION CALLING FOR ACTS OF SABOTAGE AGAINST THE
REGIME. AND IN HIS SERMON AT THE ANSAR MOSQUE TWO WEEKS
AGO, SADIQ HAD ENDORSED THE SPILLING OF BLOOD. I
REPLIED THAT IF SADIQ HAD COMMITTED A CRIME UNDER
SUDANESE LAW, HE SHOULD BE CHARGED AND TRIED IN A COURT
OF LAW. FATIH SAID THAT SADIQ IS BEING HANDLED IN
CONFORMACE WITH THE LAW, WHICH ALLOWS PERSONS TO BE HELD
WITHOUT CHARGE WHILE EVIDENCE IS BEING GATHERED.


11. BASHIR DENIED THAT ANY OF THE ORGANIZATIONS I
MENTIONED, EXCEPT FOR HAMAS, HAVE OFFICES HERE. HE SAID
THE ABU NIDAL ORGANIZATION HAD REQUESTED THIS PRIVILEGE
BUT HAD BEEN TURNED DOWN. THE GOS ALSO HAD DENIED A
SIMILAR REQUEST BY THE ARMED JIBRIL ORGANIZATION.
HIZBALLAH HAS OFFICES AND PEOPLE IN OTHER CITIES AND
DOES NOT NEED ONE HERE. THE GOS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH
GAMIAT ISLAMIYA. SUDAN DOES NOT CONSIDER MAMAS TO BE A
TERRORIST ORGANIZATION. IT HAS COMMITTED NO ACTS OF
VIOLENCE OUTSIDE THE "OCCUPIED TERRITORIES," HE
ASSERTED. LATER, I MENTIONED SOME SPECIFIC CONCERNS
THAT I HAVE ABOUT THE TERRORIST PRESENCE IN KHARTOUM
(SEPTEL).


12. BASHIR BROUGHT UP HIS APPOINTMENT OF FATIH TO BE
AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S. HE SAID "THIS APPOINTMENT IS MY
APPOINTMENT," NOT THE FOREIGN MINISTER'S OR ANYONE
ELSE'S. FATIH WOULD "CARRY MY PERSONAL VIEW,
ACCURATELY, IN MY NAME" AND WOULD "REPORT BACK HONESTLY
AND ACCURATELY." HE SAID THIS PROVED THAT HE WANTS "A
DIRECT LINK TO WASHINGTON," NOT ONE HAMPERED BY A
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS.
(ADDITIONAL DETAILS ON THIS TOPIC BY SEPTEL IN AGREMENT
CHANNEL.)


13. WE ALSO DISCUSSED THE PEACE PROCESS. I WILL REPORT
ON THIS ASPECT IN A SEPTEL THAT WILL HAVE WIDER
DISTRIBUTION THAN THIS CABLE'S.


14. COMMENT: EXCEPT FOR BRIEF MOMENTS, THE
MEETING WAS VERY AMICABLE. I AM CONVINCED THAT BASHIR
REALLY DOES WANT BETTER RELATIONS WITH THE U.S., BUT WE
SIMPLY HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO GET THROUGH TO HIM THAT OUR
QUARRELS WITH HIS REGIME ARE BASED ON VALID CONCERNS.
HE SAYS HE KNOWS THAT I AM BEING HONEST WITH HIM AND
SEEMS TO APPRECIATE THAT. NEVERTHELESS HE EITHER IS
POORLY INFORMED ABOUT SUCH THINGS AS THE OFFICES THAT
TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS DO INDEED HAVE HERE, OR HE IS
BEING DISINGENUOUS. WE AGREED THAT WE NEED TO TRY A NEW
TACK IN TRYING TO OVERCOME THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE
U.S. AND SUDAN AND THAT WE WILL DISCUSS THIS AGAIN.


PETTERSON