MEETING WITH MUSEVENI.

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 04 KAMPALA 00184

E.O. 12356: DECL:OADR
TAGS: EAID PREL PHUM US
SUBJECT: MEETING WITH MUSEVENI.


1. CONFIDENTIAL - ENTIRE TEXT.


2. INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY:

AMBASSADOR ACCOMPANIED BY PAO MET WITH UGANDAN PRESIDENT
YOWERI MUSEVENI FOR ALMOST TWO HOURS AT STATE HOUSE ENTEBBE
JANUARY 15. THE MAJORITY OF THE MEETING CONCENTRATED ON
HUMAN RIGHTS AND NRA USE OF "3-PIECE TIE". AMBASSADOR
DESCRIBED HIS EFFORTS TO ENCOURAGE US TRADERS TO JOIN IN
BARTER TRADE WITH UGANDA. MUSEVENI WELCOMED US WILLINGNESS
TO RESPOND TO RECENT PL-480 REQUEST. THE PRESIDENT CLAIMED
THAT DESPITE SOME RECENT SHARP ENGAGEMENTS WITH UNLA
REMNANTS IN THE NORTH, HE FELT THAT THE SECURITY SITUATION
IN THE NORTH WAS QUICKLY COMING UNDER CONTROL. THE
PROBLEM COULD BE AT AN END WITHIN TWO MONTHS. THE PRESIDENT
CASTIGATED THE FOREIGN MINISTRY FOR ITS INEPTITUDE IN
ATTEMPTING TO ARRANGE A VISIT FOR HIM TO THE UNITED STATES
LAST YEAR, AND ASKED THE AMBASSADOR'S ASSISTANCE IN PROPERLY
WORKING OUT A VISIT TO WASHINGTON AND A CALL ON PRESIDENT
REAGAN THIS FALL. END SUMMARY.


3. HUMAN RIGHTS:

THE AMBASSADOR NOTED THAT UGANDA HAD SUFFERED A "HANGOVER"
FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES OF THE AMIN AND OBOTE PERIODS
AND THAT IN RECENT MONTHS THE SPECIAL HUMAN RIGHTS SCRUTINY
THAT HAD BEEN APPLIED BY THE USG TO THINGS SUCH AS MULTI-
LATERAL DEVELOPMENT BANK LOANS TO UGANDA HAD EASED AS A
RESULT OF THE IMPROVED HUMAN RIGHTS PERFORMANCE OF THE NRM
GOVERNMENT. THE USG WOULD CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE HUMAN
RIGHTS SITUATION IN UGANDA CLOSELY AND HOPED THAT THE FORMER
SENIOR MEMBERS OF GOVERNMENT WHO HAD BEEN ARRESTED ON TREASON
CHARGES WOULD SOON COME TO TRIAL AND RECEIVE THE FULL
PROTECTION OF THE LAW DURING THE HEARING OF THEIR CASES. THE
PRESIDENT SAID THERE NEED NOT BE ANY FEAR ON THAT SCORE AS
THE TRIALS WOULD TAKE PLACE SOON. HE ADDED THAT IF THERE WAS
NOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO BRING A PARTICULAR CASE TO TRIAL THE
INDIVIDUAL CONCERNED WOULD BE RELEASED. BASED UPON HIS
MONITORING OF THE INVESTIGATION SO FAR, HE FELT THAT THERE
WOULD BE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO BRING SOME TO TRIAL, WHILE
OTHERS IN CUSTODY WOULD BE RELEASED BECAUSE OF INSUFFICIENT
EVIDENCE.


4. THE AMBASSADOR SAID HE WAS DISTURBED TO HEAR THAT THE
NRA WAS USING THE "3-PIECE TIE" IN THE NORTH AS A MEANS OF
EXTRACTING INFORMATION DURING THE INTERROGATION OF PRISONERS.
MUSEVENI ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE 3-PIECE TIE WAS BEING USED
AND WONDERED WHY IT SHOULD CONCERN OUTSIDE OBSERVERS. THE
AMBASSADOR REPLIED THAT THE INFLICTION OF PAIN TO ELICIT
INFORMATION FROM A DETAINEE WAS TORTURE AND A VIOLATION OF
HUMAN RIGHTS, ADDING THAT HE HAD HEARD OF CASES WHERE
GANGRENE HAD DEVELOPED AND ARMS HAD TO BE AMPUTATED AS A
RESULT OF THE USE OF THE 3-PIECE TIE. MUSEVENI PROTESTED
THAT IF PROPERLY APPLIED THE 3-PIECE TIE SHOULD NOT RESULT
IN SUCH INJURY. HE WENT ON TO CLAIM THAT WITHOUT ITS USE
THE NRA WOULD BE SEVERELY HAMPERED IN BRINGING PEACE TO TESO
AND SOUTH KARAMOJA WHICH WERE CURRENTLY BEING PLAGUED BY
ARMED RUSTLERS. "I DON'T LIKE CRUELTY BUT WE MUST HAVE
TOUGHNESS," CONTINUED THE PRESIDENT. "THESE PEOPLE ARE
USED TO A ROUGH LIFE; THEY ARE NOT PUNISHED BY BEING LOCKED
UP. IF YOU'RE NOT TOUGH WITH LAWLESS ELEMENTS, THE LAW
ABIDING FEAR TO TALK. IF YOU JUST USE VERBAL INTERROGATION,
IT WON'T GET ANYWHERE." THE AMBASSADOR SAID THAT THE USE
OF TORTURE COULD NOT BE RATIONALIZED BY CLAIMS THAT IT WAS
USED IN THE PURSUIT OF A "GOOD CAUSE." "THE 3-PIECE TIE IS
A FORM OF TORTURE AND CLEARLY A HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSE WHICH IF
CONTINUED BY THE NRA WILL SERIOUSLY UNDERMINE THE FAVORABLE
HUMAN RIGHTS REPUTATION WHICH HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED BY THE
NEW NRM GOVERNMENT."


5. IN RESPONSE TO MUSEVENI'S REQUEST THAT THE AMBASSADOR
DEFINE TORTURE THE AMBASSADOR SAID HE WOULD BE HAPPY TO
OBTAIN A PRECISE DEFINITION FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS EXPERTS
IN WASHINGTON, BUT THAT AS FAR AS HE WAS CONCERNED THE
INFLICTION OF PAIN TO ELICIT INFORMATION WAS CLEARLY TORTURE
AND A HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION. THE PRESIDENT REJOINED THAT
HE WAS NOT INTERESTED IN HURTING ANYONE BUT SIMPLY WANTED
TO BRING STABILITY. THERE WAS A CULTURAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
UGANDA AND THE WEST. THE PRESIDENT ASSERTED THAT IF HE
TRIED TO USE MORE HUMANE METHODS HE WOULD BE SWIMMING
AGAINST THE TIDE OF POPULAR OPINION. THE POPULAR VIEW IS
THAT THIEVES SHOULD BE HURT. MOST PEOPLE BELIEVE THE LEGAL
MACHINERY IS HOPELESS AND AS A CONSEQUENCE TAKE THE LAW
INTO THEIR OWN HANDS. THE AMBASSADOR SAID HE DID NOT WANT
TO BELABOR THE POINT BUT IF THE NRA PERSISTED IN THE USE
OF THE 3-PIECE TIE THE GOVERNMENT'S CLAIM THAT THEY WERE
TRULY DIFFERENT FROM PREVIOUS UNPOPULAR REGIMES WOULD HAVE
A HOLLOW RING.


6. COMMENT: MUSEVENI'S ATTEMPT TO LIGHTLY DISMISS AND
THEN DEFEND THE USE OF THE 3-PIECE TIE WAS DISAPPOINTING
AND SOMEWHAT DISTURBING. BASED ON HIS REACTIONS, I SUSPECT
THAT OUR INTERVENTION WAS THE FIRST TIME HE HAD BEEN
SERIOUSLY CHALLENGED ON IT. THE EMBASSY WILL BE APPROACHING
OTHER EMBASSIES AND MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT TO REINFORCE
THIS DEMARCHE TO THE PRESIDENT.


7. BARTER TRADE:

THE AMBASSADOR SAID HE WOULD NOT REVIEW THE OBVIOUS LIMITATIONS
OF THE BARTER TRADE AS IT ALREADY HAD BEEN DISCUSSED IN DETAIL
WITH MANY MINISTERS. HE SIMPLY WANTED THE PRESIDENT TO KNOW
THAT IF HIS GOVERNMENT WAS HELL-BENT ON PURSUING THIS FORM OF
TRADE, HE WANTED HIM TO KNOW THERE WERE A NUMBER OF AMERICAN
FIRMS ENGAGED IN THIS TYPE OF ECONOMIC ACTIVITY AND THAT THE
GOVERNMENT MIGHT FIND IT MORE ADVANTAGEOUS TO DEAL WITH THEM
THAN TO PURSUE SOME OF THE GOVERNMENT-TO-GOVERNMENT DEALS
CURRENTLY BEING DISCUSSED. THE AMBASSADOR MENTIONED THAT ONE
OF THE FRUSTRATIONS IN TRYING TO ASSIST AMERICAN COMPANIES,
SUCH AS GENERAL MOTORS, WHO WERE INTERESTED IN GETTING
INVOLVED IN BARTER TRADE WITH UGANDA WAS THE DIFFICULTY OF
OBTAINING GOOD INFORMATION ON THE TYPES AND QUANTITIES OF
COMMODITIES UGANDA COULD MAKE AVAILABLE FOR BARTER. REFERRING
TO THE CIVIL SERVANTS IN THE VARIOUS MINISTRIES, THE PRESIDENT
SAID "THESE FELLOWS ARE NOT SERIOUS" AND THEN INSTRUCTED HIS
PERSONAL ASSISTANT TO SEND THE AMBASSADOR THE REQUESTED
INFORMATION. THE AMBASSADOR MENTIONED THAT AN AMERICAN
BARTER TRADING FIRM, THE IBE CORPORATION OF NEW YORK, WOULD
BE SIGNING AN AGREEMENT-WITH THE MINISTRY OF COMMERCE WHICH
WOUL? P?OIDE THE FRAMEWORK (E.G., SWING CREDIT ARRANGEMENTS)
FOR THEM TO TRADE WITH UGANDA. IBE WOULD BE IN A POSITION
TO PROVIDE FARM EQUIPMENT ON CREDIT AND THEN TAKE PAYMENT
IN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE TO LIQUIDATE THE DEBT. THE PRESIDENT
BEAMED THAT THIS WAS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF DEAL HE WOULD LIKE
TO FOSTER AND THANKED THE AMBASSADOR FOR ENCOURAGING
AMERICAN FIRMS TO CONSIDER BARTERING WITH UGANDA.


8. U.S. ASSISTANCE:

THE AMBASSADOR NOTED THE PL-480 REQUEST RECENTLY RECEIVED
FROM THE GOU, COMMENTING THAT IT WAS RECEIVING EXPEDITIOUS
CONSIDERATION IN WASHINGTON. MUSEVENI ACKNOWLEDGED THAT
THERE HAD BEEN AN EVOLUTION IN GOVERNMENT THINKING REGARDING
FOOD AID AND THAT THERE WAS NOW AN APPRECIATION THAT PL-480
COULD BE IMPORTANT IN MEETING NEAR-TERM FEEDING REQUIREMENTS,
AS WELL AS IN GENERATING RESOURCES FOR LONGER-TERM DEVELOPMENT.
THE AMBASSADOR COMMENTED THAT THE EMBASSY WAS FOLLOWING VERY
CLOSELY GOVERNMENT'S DIALOGUE WITH THE WORLD BANK AND THE IMF
ON ECONOMIC POLICY, EMPHASIZING THAT OUR LONGER-TERM
ASSISTANCE PLANNING WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO ACCOMPLISH BEFORE
GOVERNMENT REACHED SOME BASIC DECISIONS ON ECONOMIC POLICY
(E.G., EXCHANGE RATE ADJUSTMENT). THE AMBASSADOR SHARED
WITH MUSEVENI A COPY OF A DRAFT PLANNING CONCEPT PAPER
PREPARED BY THE AID MISSION STATING THAT WHILE IT HAD NO
APPROVAL OR STATUS IN WASHINGTON, WE WOULD LIKE TO USE IT
AS A BASIS FOR DISCUSSING WITH GOVERNMENT ITS DEVELOPMENT
OBJECTIVES AND PRIORITIES, AND HOW THE USG MIGHT BEST ASSIST.
MUSEVENI SAID HE WOULD READ THE PAPER AND LOOKED FORWARD
TO OPENING A DIALOGUE ON DEVELOPMENT PLANNING.


9. SUDAN SITUATION:

THE AMBASSADOR ASKED FOR MUSEVENI'S ASSESSMENT OF WHAT WAS
HAPPENING IN THE SOUTHERN SUDAN AND WHETHER THERE WAS ANY
USEFUL ROLE WHICH THE USG OR OTHER OUTSIDE PARTIES COULD
PLAY TO BRING THE PARTIES TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE. MUSEVENI
SAID HE DID NOT HAVE ANY RECOMMENDATION AT THIS TIME BUT THAT
HE WOULD THINK ABOUT IT. HE SAID HE HAD ADVISED GARANG LAST
YEAR TO TALK SERIOUSLY WITH THE GOVERNMENT IN KHARTOUM. AS
FAR AS THE PRESIDENT WAS CONCERNED THE CONFLICT HAD TO BE
SOLVED POLITICALLY; HE COMMENTED THAT HE THOUGHT THE SUDANESE
GOVERNMENT WAS PARANOID ABOUT GARANG'S RELATIONSHIP WITH
ETHIOPIA. GARANG WAS NOT IN ADDIS BECAUSE HE SUPPORTS THE
ETHIOPIAN GOVERNMENT BUT RATHER BECAUSE THEY ARE HIS ONLY
SUBSTANTIAL SOURCE OF SUPPORT. THE PRESIDENT SAID THE
SUDANESE HAD MADE TWO FUNDAMENTAL ERRORS: THEY ASSERTED
THAT THE SUDAN WAS AN ARAB NATION AND AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY.


10. SITUATION IN THE NORTH:

THE AMBASSADOR ASKED HOW THE FIGHTING IN THE NORTH WAS
PROGRESSING AND MUSEVENI REPLIED THAT THE NRA'S RECENT
OPERATIONS ALONG THE SUDANESE BORDER HAD BEEN SUCCESSFUL.
THE UNLA REMNANTS LACKED A CENTRAL COMMAND, A COHERENT
STRATEGY, AND POLITICAL PROGRAM. HE ADMITTED THAT THE
REBELS HAD TAKEN THE NRA BY SURPRISE WHEN THEY ATTACKED
LAST AUGUST BUT FELT THAT THE NRA NOW HAD ADEQUATE FORCES
IN THE NORTH AND WAS IN A POSITION TO "FINISH THEM IN
TWO MONTHS." HE OBSERVED THAT THE KEY PROBLEM IN TRYING
TO PURSUE A NEGOTIATED END TO THE CONFLICT WAS THAT THE NRA
WAS FACING PEOPLE WHO WERE "POLITICALLY PRIMITIVE." HE
CLAIMED THAT EVIDENCE HAD RECENTLY COME TO THE NRA'S
ATTENTION THAT THE UNLA FORCES WERE INVOKING WITHCRAFT
TO ENTHUSE THEIR FORCES. IT WAS NOT WORKING AND WAS
LEADING TO THE LOPSIDED CASUALTY FIGURES IN THE NRA'S
FAVOR.


11. MUSEVENI TRIP TO WASHINGTON.

WHEN THE AMBASSADOR ASKED IF THE PRESIDENT HAD ANY ISSUES
HE WANTED TO RAISE, MUSEVENI SAID HE HAD BEEN EMBARRASSED
AND ANGERED BY THE POOR ADVICE AND PERFORMANCE OF THE
FOREIGN MINISTRY WHEN IT RECOMMENDED HE VISIT WASHINGTON
LAST YEAR. THAT SAID, THE PRESIDENT QUICKLY CONTINUED
THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO VISIT WASHINGTON LATER THIS YEAR.
THE AMBASSADOR NOTED THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS PLANNING TO
ATTEND THE COMMONWEALTH MEETING IN CANADA AND WOULD PROBABLY
ALSO BE INTERESTED IN ATTENDING THE UNGA. THOSE TWO EVENTS
SUGGESTED A GENERAL TIMEFRAME FOR A VISIT TO WASHINGTON
WHICH THE AMBASSADOR WOULD SO RECOMMEND TO HIS GOVERNMENT.
THE AMBASSADOR ADDED, HOWEVER, THAT ARRANGING A MEETING
WITH PRESIDENT REAGAN WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT AND COMMENTED
THAT HE HAD BEEN DISAPPOINTED WHEN MUSEVENI DECIDED NOT TO
TRAVEL TO THE UNITED STATES LAST YEAR, WHEN IT BECAME
APPARENT THAT A MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT WOULD NOT BE
POSSIBLE. A NUMBER OF VERY USEFUL MEETINGS WITH SENIOR
MEMBERS OF THE ADMINISTRATION SHORT OF THE PRESIDENT, AND
KEY FIGURES IN THE CONGRESS AND THE PRIVATE SECTOR COULD
HAVE BEEN ARRANGED. ASSURING MUSEVENI THAT HE WOULD MAKE
HIS BEST EFFORT TO TRY TO ARRANGE A CALL ON PRESIDENT
REAGAN, THE AMBASSADOR ADDED THAT SHOULD IT NOT BE POSSIBLE,
A VISIT TO THE UNITED STATES TO MEET OTHER INFLUENTIAL
PERSONALITIES IS STILL VERY MUCH IN HIS INTEREST.


12. COMMENT:

MUSEVENI OBVIOUSLY WANTS VERY BADLY TO VISIT WASHINGTON
AND CALL ON THE PRESIDENT, AND FINDS IT HARD TO BELIEVE
THAT IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO ARRANGE, ESPECIALLY AFTER HIS
SUCCESSFUL TRIP TO EUROPE WHERE HE MET WITH PRIME MINISTER
THATCHER, THE QUEEN, THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE POPE,
ETCETERA. MUSEVENI KNOWS LITTLE OF THE WESTERN WORLD
AND A VISIT TO THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE MOST BENEFICIAL.
LET US START NOW TO TRY AND ARRANGE AN OFFICE CALL ON THE
PRESIDENT WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF HIS TRAVEL TO NORTH AMERICA
IN THE FALL.


HOUDEK