BELGIUM ON PKK AND CT COOPERATION

S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 03 BRUSSELS 000895

SIPDIS

STATE PASS S/CT FOR AMBASSADOR RON SCHLICHER AND KEREM
BILGE, ANKARA FOR CAROLYN DELANEY, EUR/WE, EUR/PGI, EUR/SE,
AND EUR/ERA

E.O. 12958: DNG: CO 06/20/2019
TAGS: PREL PGOV PTER KISL PINR TU IZ BE
SUBJECT: BELGIUM ON PKK AND CT COOPERATION

REF: BRUSSELS 779

Classified By: Charge Wayne Bush for reasons 1.4 (B) and (D).


1. (S) Summary: Principal Deputy Counterterrorism Coordinator
Ambassador Ronald Schlicher met June 9 with Belgian CT
officials to discuss PKK, Roj-TV, and wider CT cooperation; a
luncheon hosted by the Charge covered additional CT themes.
Ambassador Schlicher conveyed a message from Danish CT
officials he met the day before in Copenhagen, that the Danes
wished to increase information exchange and cooperation with
the GOB on Roj-TV. Belgian CT experts told Ambassador
Schlicher the fine levied on the Roj-TV production facility
in Denderleeuw did not end its operations. The PKK is
skilled at raising and extorting money and maintaining cash
flow, they said, and hires the best lawyers to handle cases.
The GOB has worked to improve coordination and cooperation
with the Turkish government on the PKK and Roj-TV, but is
more concerned with wider CT problems primarily in the Sahel,
Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Ambassador Schlicher said the
U.S. was watching Al-Qaeda franchising closely, particularly
Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb. At a follow-on meeting at
the Turkish Embassy, the Turkish DCM said he believed the
Belgians were trying to improve their cooperation on PKK, but
added that Ankara was not satisfied with what it perceived as
little success in ending PKK activities in Belgium. End
Summary.

Introduction
--------------


2. (U) Principal Deputy CT Coordinator Schlicher met with
Belgian CT officials June 9 to discuss Roj-TV, the PKK, and
wider CT cooperation between Belgium and the U.S. He then
attended a luncheon hosted by the Charge that included a
wider range of diplomatic, police, and judicial officials.
The first meeting was attended by the PM's Security Advisor
Francisca Bostyn, MFA CT Coordinator Thomas Baekelandt,
Ministry of Interior (MinInt) Security Advisor Marc Van
Laere, Francois Schell of the Ministry of Justice, Belgian
Federal Police (BFP) Anti-Terrorism Coordinator Eddy Greif,
State Security Service officers Peter Van De Parre and Rob
Geukens, General Information and Security Service analyst
Stephane Vandamme, Threat Center (OCAM/OCAD) Director Andre
Vandoren, OCAM/OCAD Deputy Director Luc Verheyden, and Crisis
Centre Director Alain Lefevre. The Luncheon guests were:
Bostyn, Verheyden, Greif, and Baekelandt, plus additional
guests Financial Intelligence Unit (CTIF) Director
Jean-Claude Delapierre, BFP Brussels Chief Glen Audenaert,
JustMin Diplomatic Advisor Marc Van den Reeck, IntMin
Diplomatic Advisor Karl Van den Bossche, and Federal
Prosecutor Johan Delmulle. After the two Belgium-focused
meetings, the Ambassador's party, which also included Ankara
Regional Legal Advisor Carolyn Delaney and S/CT Officer Kerem
Bilge, met with the Turkish DCM Can Incesu and Second
Secretary from the Delegation to the EU Aytac Yilmaz.

PKK - Roj-TV
--------------


3. (S) Ambassador Schlicher explained to the GOB officials
that he came to Europe to speak with the GOB and the Danes
about the PKK and to promote cooperation on shutting down
Roj-TV, the PKK's most important and costly propaganda
program. He conveyed a message from Danish authorities that
they sought closer information exchange with Belgium on its
efforts against the PKK and Roj-TV; he suggested the June 15
Eurojust meeting as a good opportunity for the two countries
to meet. The Danes had as yet not been able to build a
strong case linking the broadcasts to terrorist incidents
despite Turkish government cooperation. State Security said
the EUR 6 million tax fine levied by Belgian tax authorities
last year (see reftel) did not effect Roj-TV as had been
hoped. The PKK had access to large sums of money, though the
organization was having difficulty paying the fine with
"clean" money. The PKK has hired a sophisticated expert in
Belgian fiscal law to argue the case in court. They also
predicted a new station would arise somewhere else in Europe
were Belgium successful in closing the facility in
Denderleeuw. Ambassador Schlicher shared that the Turks

BRUSSELS 00000895 002 OF 003


believed Norway, Sweden, or the Netherlands were likely
follow-on destinations; he suggested more effort to
understand the extortion and money-raising ability of the
PKK. Greif said the BFP had conducted investigations for the
Danes, and that there had been a few prosecutions in Belgium
in recent months. He added that the rare extortion
complaints were usually withdrawn out of fear within days
when made.


4. (S) GOB contacts confirmed Belgian concerns about security
threats in Belgium related to PKK activities, and also cited
Turkish efforts to push Belgium to do more to pressure PKK
linked residents. Verheyden said OCAM/OCAD maintained a
general threat level for Kurdish - Turkish ethnic violence in
Brussels neighborhoods at two out of five (low risk),but had
raised the level to three out of five after PKK - Turkish
military confrontations in Turkey led to violence between the
two ethnic communities. Although the Belgians said that it
was media coverage, including on Roj-TV, of those
confrontations that tended to spark the violence, they did
not seem willing to say that Roj-TV was inciting violence and
then use this as an argument to close the station down.
Baekelandt described the information regularly supplied by
the Turkish embassy as useless for the purposes of
constructing a strong legal case. Both Greif and Vandamme
commented that Turkish and Belgian law were quite different.
Baekelandt said both sides have made efforts to improve
cooperation and communication to pursue cases effectively.
He said the Turks occasionally ask Belgium to
"administratively harass" suspected PKK operatives and
supporters; he believes the GOB's expulsion of Moroccan
intelligence operatives from Belgium last year has dissuaded
the Turks from conducting any anti-PKK programs in Belgium.


5. (S) At the luncheon, Baekelandt said FM De Gucht visited
Mosul on his last visit to Iraq, and learned first-hand that
the GOT had recognized the regional Kurdish government in
northern Iraq. Schlicher said recognition was a watershed
change for Turkey. Bilge linked the GOT's recent defense of
the autonomy of the Kurdish region against encroachments by
Baghdad to an evolution in Turkish thinking. Delmulle said
he had witnessed some improvement in Belgian - Turkish
cooperation and mutual understanding on the legal issues
relating to the PKK. He himself had recently traveled to
Turkey and met with prosecutors in Ankara and Istanbul. He
said the GOB has tried to show the Turks that the PKK and
DHKP/C are problems for Belgium as well; he was hopeful
Belgian prosecutors would be able to achieve some convictions
in the long-running Erdahl case this fall (see reftel).
Verheyden thinks the Turks are starting to recognize that not
all Kurds are PKK.

General CT Concerns and Cooperation
--------------


6. (S) During the morning meeting, Baekelandt said France,
Spain, Belgium, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands were
particularly concerned with Sahel nations from Algeria down
through Mauritania. Ambassador Schlicher said the U.S. was
closely watching Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, as well as
events in Yemen. Afghanistan and Pakistan were priorities
for both countries.


7. (S) At the luncheon, Ambassador Schlicher's explanation
that the new Administration would be taking a holistic
approach to CT cooperation received wide approval from the
guests. The Charge asked if the GOB addressed the public on
the importance of Belgium's operation in Afghanistan.
Audenaert replied that the fragmented political landscape and
differing opinions within Belgium's carefully constructed
coalition governments often mitigate against obvious
statements; the political class is aware that Brussels will
be a Muslim majority city within five years and does not want
to antagonize its population. Baekelandt added that grand
designs and major addresses are not well received by the
public and are rarely made. Van den Reeck said the
government was thinking regularly about CT issues, which were
larger than Afghanistan, even if the GOB does not regularly
address its public on the subject. Bostyn mentioned PM Van
Rompuy's trip to Afghanistan June 3, and his subsequent

BRUSSELS 00000895 003 OF 003


meeting with EU representatives, as a Belgian effort to
defend Belgium's engagement in Afghanistan.


8. (S) The luncheon ended with a discussion of Al-Qaeda and
radicalization. Ambassador Schlicher commented that the U.S.
is closely watching Yemen and Somalia, two weakly-governed
nations. Al-Qaeda seems to be focusing on survival,
maintaining safe havens, and looking for cash donations for
the first time. The U.S. is also trying to determine what
the organization is thinking and would like to know its
priorities for furher jihad and struggle; Afghanistan,
Egypt, ad South Asia are likely areas of geographic focus.
Baekelandt offered that radical jihadists were a problem the
West would continue to confront. Van den Reeck said most
believe these hard-core cases cannot be de-radicalized and
must be dealt with. Audenaert said Belgium's
anti-radicalization policy had merit and is designed to
reduce domestic threats. The GOB policy tries to appeal to
mothers who do not want to see their children involved in
violent struggles. Verheyden said Belgium's OCAM/OCAD uses
local and community police to relay potential radicalization
threats in Muslim immigrant communities to the GOB.

Turkish Embassy
--------------


9. (S) During a discussion at the Turkish Embassy First
Counselor Can Incesu and Second Secretary from the Turkish
Delegation to the EU Aytac Yilmaz exchanged views with
Ambassador Schlicher's party. Incesu said in past years, he
had the impression that Belgium placed little importance on
the PKK, and past failed attempts to prosecute the PKK were
difficult for Turkey to understand. He believed cooperation
had improved, especially after several Belgian ministers
visited Ankara in October 2008, and Chief Prosecutor
Delmulle's trip in January 2009. Yilmaz said the GOT was not
completely satisfied with EU cooperation, but considering the
continent-wide reach of the PKK, European cooperation against
the PKK remains a Turkish priority. The GOT's main concerns
Europe-wide are: extradition requests; refugee status granted
to Kurds that Turkey has asked to be extradited; propaganda
activities of the PKK in Europe, and keeping the PKK and its
affiliates on the common position list. Ambassador Schlicher
remarked that the listing would remain. Incesu agreed, but
said a listing did not have a wide-enough reach. He said
that in Belgium a listing affected finances only, and that a
prosecutor has to tie an individual to terrorist actions to
make a case, a higher standard than required in Turkey.
Incesu also claimed the PKK had too many sympathizers in
Belgium, who were able to neutralize the GOB's response; the
Turkish Embassy has noted the GOB does not make strong
statements condemning attacks in Turkey similar to those made
by the governments of Germany or France.

Comment
--------------


10. (S) Ambassador Schlicher's visit successfully raised our
Belgian interlocutors' consciousness on PKK and Roj-TV issues
in Belgium, and provided an opportunity to review with senior
Belgian officials the new administration's developing
approach to counterterrorism issues generally. There is
currently excellent cooperation with the Belgians on
counterterrorism. This visit helped to reinforce our
counterparts' engagement with the U.S. and openness to U.S.
views.

BUSH
.