DRL DELEGATION DISCUSSES EXPANDING TIES WITH

C O N F I D E N T I A L RIYADH 002051

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

DEPT PLEASE PASS TO DRL FOR EBARKS-RUGGLES/JLIEBERMAN AND
NEA/ARP FOR RJACHIM/SRAMESH

E.O. 12958: DECL: 09/08/2017
TAGS: PHUM PGOV KDEM ECPS SOCI SCUL SA
SUBJECT: DRL DELEGATION DISCUSSES EXPANDING TIES WITH
REPRESENTATIVES OF SAUDI JUDICIARY, "PROTO-PARLIAMENT"

REF: 2007 RIYADH 00581

Classified By: Pol Counselor David Rundell for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).


1. (C) SUMMARY: Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
(DRL) Deputy Assistant Secretary (DAS) Erica Barks-Ruggles
visited Riyadh, Saudi Arabia June 4-7, 2007, to discuss with
SAG officials opportunities for legal and legislative
exchanges, as well as possible programs for technical
support. Interlocutors expressed interest in a range of
exchange programs, including exchanges for judges, law
students, Majlis Al-Shura members and staff, and private
sector legal experts. It was agreed that the best approach
would be for DRL to formally request participation for
representatives of the judiciary, laws schools, and the Shura
Council in the next U.S. - Saudi Arabia Strategic Dialouge,s
(SD) Human Development Working Group (HDWG),as well as to
submit formal, detailed proposals for exchanges. END SUMMARY.


2. (C) DRL DAS Erica Barks-Ruggles visited Riyadh, Saudi
Arabia June 4-7, 2007, conducting separate meetings with the
Grievance Board, Ministries of Foreign Affairs (MFA) and
Justice (MOJ),the Majlis Al-Shura, and King Saud University
College of Administration and Political Science.
Barks-Ruggles also met with the Human Rights Commission and
the National Society for Human Rights (septel). These
meetings, which focused on expanding ties with
representatives of the Kingdom,s judicial system and
"proto-parliament" (Majlis Al-Shura) and exploring possible
joint exchanges, followed up on meetings held in Riyadh in
December 2006 (reftel). Barks-Ruggles was accompanied by
U.S. District Court (Minnesota) Judge Michael J. Davis, James
Filpi of the U.S. Department of Commerce,s Commercial Law
Development Program (CLDP),and R. Andrew Mosley of the U.S.
Department of State,s Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs,
Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI). Representatives
of the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL)
joined the delegation for the meeting with the Majlis
Al-Shura.

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MINISTRY OF JUSTICE
--------------


3. (C) The delegation met with Advisor to the Minister of
Justice Dr. Abdul Malik A. M. al-Sheikh and two Shari,a
judges -- Suleman al-Majed and Mansour al-Qefary. Al-Sheikh
explained that MOJ provides administrative assistance to
Shari,a courts but that judges represent the courts. He
said the Saudi judicial system is based on Shari,a, which
uses the Qur,an, Hadiths (the Prophet,s sayings),the four
Sunni legal schools, and "reasonings." In addition to
Shari,a courts, there are six specialized courts. Each
specialized court has an appeals court.


4. (C) Al-Majed and al-Qefary said that each case may involve
up to 13 judges and judges have a minimum of 30 years of
experience. Three judges decide a case, and five judges
review the decision. If there is an appeal, five other
judges on the Supreme Judicial Council can review the
decision made by the five-member review panel. They
explained that the main job of a Shari,a judge is to apply
the facts to the law, adding that, as in the U.S. system,
individuals can defend themselves.


5. (C) Al-Majed and al-Qefary expressed interest in CLDP,s
proposal for commercial law exchanges for judges, law
professors, and law students. Al-Sheikh stated that MOJ
supports visits by Saudi judges to other countries, and would
like to have judges and MOJ officials participate in such
exchanges. The HDWG has discussed exchanges between the U.S.
and Saudi Arabia, but the MOJ noted that MFA will have to
make the decision on this proposal.

--------------
GRIEVANCE BOARD
--------------


6. (C) During Barks-Ruggles, meeting with Grievance Board
Chairman Sheikh Mohamed Abdullah al-Amin, who is of
ministerial rank, he explained that this special branch was
initially established in 1953. The 1992 Grievance Board Law
made the Board an independent administrative board reporting
directly to the King and independent of the Council of
Ministers (COM). The King appoints the chairman and judges
based on the recommendations of the Board,s Administrative
Committee, which is also responsible for taking disciplinary
action against judges if necessary. Al-Amin emphasized that
there is no link between the Board and MOJ, explaining that

the Board is considered an "administrative judiciary" whereas
the Shari,a courts are considered the "public judiciary."


7. (C) Al-Amin said the Board hears claims against the SAG,
including for corruption and compensation issues, as well as
commercial disputes and cases involving forgery, bribery, and
misuse of SAG funds. He described the Board,s specialized
judicial departments, explaining that there are three judges
for each department and each department has sub-departments
comprising a single judge who looks at simple claims.


8. (C) Al-Amin continued that when a claim or case is filed,
it is assigned to a specialized department that provides
written notice of the day, date, location, and time of the
hearing. The department's three-judge panel then hears the
case with the concerned parties present and issues a verdict.
Anyone can appeal a verdict to a higher judicial body called
the Examining Board, which is comprised of three different
judges. If the appeal is rejected, the Court of
Examinations, which consists of three judges, studies the
case to determine whether the case is legally correct and
responds accordingly. The case is then referred back to the
Board, if necessary, for reconsideration based on the remarks
in the verdict. The Board can change the verdict or insist
on the original verdict. However, if it insists on the
original verdict, the case is referred once more to the Court
of Examinations for another review. The Court then either
agrees with that decision or re-hears the case. The final
verdict is binding for all concerned.


9. (C) Al-Amin emphasized that all hearings are public and
anyone can attend them unless there are security concerns.
No evidence can be submitted unless both parties receive it
and have the right of reply, and the claimant and defendant
can represent themselves or hire a lawyer to do so. Al-Amin
claimed that Saudi justice is based on transparency and
simple procedures, saying that the system facilitates to the
greatest extent possible the achievement of rights and
justice. When asked, he did note that women can neither be
judges nor lawyers and may not represent themselves in court.



10. (C) Turning to the possibility of participation in an
exchange program, al-Amin asked that Barks-Ruggles submit
through the MFA a specific, written proposal detailing the
proposed program. He said this proposal will be given to the
King for consideration and approval. Barks-Ruggles said she
would send an invitation through the MFA for the Grievance
Board to attend the next HDWG.

--------------
KING SAUD UNIVERSITY (KSU)
--------------


11. (C) As part of its outreach to representatives of the
Saudi justice system, the delegation met with KSU Dean Dr.
Khalid bin Othman al-Omair, former Dean Dr. Hind Khutaila,
and Professor Fahad bin Ibrahim al-Doyan. Dr. Khalid
reiterated that there are two types of judges in the Kingdom
-- Shari,a judges and those who are employed in the
specialed courts, including the Board of Grievances. He said
that KSU is using information from Harvard University on how
to establish a law faculty and expressed interest in
receiving an invitation from the USG to observe U.S. court
procedures and law schools.


12. (C) Dr. Khalid suggested that exchanges for Saudi law
students could start with the 2007-2008 academic year, adding
that it would be beneficial for female U.S. judges to meet
with female Saudi law students. He said that Saudi students
would benefit greatly from meeting with U.S. judges at Prince
Sultan and King Saud Universities, where female law sections
are now beginning their second year. He welcomed visits by
U.S. judges to the Kingdom and called for Saudi law students
to visit the U.S. These interlocutors agreed that it would
be useful for Saudi law school deans to visit the U.S. and
explore the possibility of faculty and student exchanges,
noting that the SAG has allowed KSU to contact or visit
Harvard University, Oxford University, and the Sorbonne.


13. (C) Dr. Hind stressed the need to raise awareness on a
"person-to-person" basis regarding the Kingdom,s need for
law schools. She said that it is the Saudi public that does
not understand or support having women lawyers or judges, not
the SAG or professors. She called for the media to educate
the public about the fact that women lawyers and judges would
not be contrary to Islam.


14. (C) Dr. Hind also said that more needs to be done to

ensure the independence of the judicial system. However, Dr.
Khalid suggested that the judicial system could never be
totally independent, adding that the SAG is working to
increase this independence. Dr. Khalid continued that the
King would soon issue a new law on the judiciary reconfirming
its independence.


15. (C) There was a great deal of interest in a variety of
justice related exchanges. Professor Fahad expressed
interest in learning more about the protection of human
rights during a trial, and said he would like to learn more
about commercial law, the administration of courts, and the
training of clerks. Dr. Khalid called for a memorandum of
understanding (MOU) between the USG and the SAG regarding
legal and judicial cooperation and asked Barks-Ruggles to
send a letter in October through the MFA to the Ministry of
Higher Education requesting that he provide suggestions for
exchanges for both students and judges.


16. (C) Dr. Hind said that this proposal should not be
limited to law students and asked Barks-Ruggles to also send
a letter in October to the MFA requesting that the private
sector and law firms be involved in these exchanges. Dr.
Khalid also suggested a MOU between the USG and the SAG
regarding exchanges of information, professors, students, and
legal experts. All endorsed including law school faculty and
professors in HDWG-sponsored exchanges and asked that they be
included in any future invitations.

--------------
MFA ON JUDICIAL SYSTEM
--------------


17. (C) Prince Mohammed bin Saud al-Saud, formerly MFA,s
lead on the SD, told Barks-Ruggles that there are two major
problems relating to the judiciary -- education of judges and
lack of familiarity with international law. He said that few
Shari,a graduates become judges, adding that the judge to
population ratio -- one judge for every 20,000 Saudis -- is
inadequate. He also said that judges do not review or reason
cases well and noted that technology should improve the
system by making it easier and faster to share information
accurately. Some cases take five to ten years to resolve, he
said, and people are frustrated with the courts. Prince
Mohammed indicated that MOJ is moving in the right direction
with the new laws and regulations it has implemented, which
are now posted on its website. He pointed out that now that
these rules are written and accessible, people can better
understand their rights and the consequences of their
actions, but more education efforts on this front are needed.



18. (C) Prince Mohammed also highlighted the general lack of
information about international law -- especially regarding
the World Trade Organization (WTO). He said the courts are
not ready for the WTO, noting that judges need to understand
how international law works with Shari,a. He noted also
that Saudi judges must learn about such topics as banking and
insurance, adding the SAG needs help in writing laws in
accordance with international agreements.


19. (C) Barks-Ruggles also met with MFA's Prince Turki bin
Mohammed bin Saud al-Kabeer, the new Saudi chair of the HDWG,
who focused his entire monologue on regional issues. Prince
Turki stressed that the U.S. and Saudi Arabia have strong
mutual interests, emphasizing that the U.S. should not think
of the Kingdom as just a crude oil producer. Prince Turki
was clearly focused on regional issues and not well versed in
the HDWG or the Strategic Dialogue. He also raised visa
issues with the delegation and appeared uninformed about the
judicial and legal exchange efforts that have been underway
for some time vis-a-vis the HDWG. (NOTE: Although it will
be a challenge to have him on the other side of the table in
the dialogue, Prince Turki has a reputation for being able to
deliver once engaged. We will need to work hard to engage
him such that his chairmanship of the HDWG will be productive
for human rights, reform, and exchange efforts, rather than a
another platform for discussing regional issues best
addressed in other bi-lateral fora. END NOTE.)

--------------
SHURA COUNCIL
--------------


20. (C) Barks-Ruggles, delegation met with Majlis Al-Shura
Chairman Dr. Saleh bin Abdullah al-Humaid to discuss
legislative exchanges and technical assistance. Majlis
members attending the meeting included Islamic Affairs
Committee Chairman Dr. Ibrahim al-Ibrahim, Energy and

Economic Committee member Dr. Majed al-Muneif, Laws,
Management and Petitions Committee member Dr. Saud
al-Shammary, Advisor to Chairman al-Humaid Mr. Ibrahim
al-Salman, and Manager of the Majlis Chairman,s Office Mr.
Muhanna bin Salman al-Muhanna.


21. (C) Al-Humaid welcomed exchanges between members and
staff of the U.S. Congress and the Majlis, stating that it
would be helpful for Shura Council administrative staff to
learn more about networking and how the U.S. Congress
functions. He agreed that that the Council would be willing
to send one member and staff to join the next SD HDWG and
participate in a first set of exchanges with the U.S.
Congress and state legislatures.


22. (C) According to al-Humaid, the Shura Council has reached
out to similar bodies with some members attending a worldwide
conference of parliamentarians and others traveling to visit
the Canadian parliament. Al-Humaid agreed to consider the
NCSL proposal but noted that the Shura has already contracted
Booz Allen Hamilton and McKinsey to modernize its information
and administrative infrastructure, including the
implementation of "E-government," as well as to do budgeting
capacity building. He said these contracts will cost over
USD 26.6 million (SAR 100 million) and last 18 months. The
projects will include an evaluation of the Council,s
operations and recommendations for technical and financial
assistance. (NOTE: It is unclear whether these contracts
have actually been signed. Other Majlis sources have told us
in subsequent meetings that the Council has not signed
contracts with either firm. END NOTE.)


23. (C) Al-Humaid confirmed that the Shura Council is
interested in improving its research capabilities, as stated
at the December 2006 meeting of the HDWG. He explained that
the Council wants to transform its library into a specialized
research department. This specialized research department
would conduct more profound studies and better meet the needs
of Council members.


24. (U) This cable has been cleared by DRL DAS Barks-Ruggles.
FRAKER