MAY 27 - JUNE 5, 2007 VISIT BY U.S. COMMISSION ON

C O N F I D E N T I A L RIYADH 001787

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

DEPT PLEASE PASS TO NEA/ARP FOR RJACHIM/SRAMESH AND DRL/IRF
FOR AGOMBIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 08/25/2027
TAGS: PHUM KIRF KISL PGOV PINR PTER SA
SUBJECT: MAY 27 - JUNE 5, 2007 VISIT BY U.S. COMMISSION ON
INTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM TO SAUDI ARABIA

REF: A. JEDDAH 00279

B. RIYADH 01767

C. RIYADH 01074

Classified By: Charge d'Affaires Michael Gfoeller for reasons 1.4 (B) a
nd (D).


1. (C) SUMMARY: Members and staff of the U.S. Commission on
International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) visited the Kingdom
from May 27 to June 5, 2007, traveling to Jeddah (Ref A),
Dhahran, and Riyadh. Describing itself as independent -- but
part of the USG, the Commission met with SAG ministries and
agencies, as well as with Saudi intellectuals and educators.
Several of the Commission,s interlocutors agreed that crises
such as the war in Iraq and the Israeli/Palestinian conflict
set the stage for intolerant thinking, adding that extremists
exploit these conflicts to further their own agenda. These
officials noted that the SAG,s re-education program has been
successful and said strong Government engagement with the
Kingdom,s imams is paying dividends in terms of greater
tolerance.


2. (C) SUMMARY CONTINUED: The Commission,s interlocutors
also agreed that much progress has been made relating to
religious freedom, most of which has been led by the ruling
family. They noted that the King must balance reform against
the wishes of the Saudi public, as well as considering the
goals of extremists. All stated that private worship by
non-Muslims is the Government,s policy, but added that
public worship is unrealistic and could have extremely
detrimental consequences at this stage. Interlocutors
pointed to increasing criticism of the religious police, as
well as greater accountability for the regular police, as
evidence of the SAG,s progress in facilitating a more open
society. END SUMMARY.


3. (C) USCIRF members and staff visited the Kingdom from May
27 to June 5, 2007, traveling to Jeddah (Ref A),Dhahran, and
Riyadh. USCIRF last visited Saudi Arabia in March 2001. The
Commission met with the Ministries of Foreign Affairs (MFA),
Interior (MOI),Culture and Information (MOCI),and Islamic
Affairs (MOIA),as well as the Human Rights Commission (HRC)
(Ref B),National Society for Human Rights (NSHR),local
intellectuals and educators. Most of USCIRF,s interlocutors
agreed that dialogue is beneficial, although there was some
resentment about what is perceived to be the USG,s
"motivation" and "interference" in furthering religious
freedom and democracy.


4. (C) The SAG did not approve requests for meetings with the
King, Ministries of Justice (MOJ),Education (MOE),and
Higher Education (MOHE),or the Commission for the Promotion
of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (CPVPV),and the King
Abdul Aziz Center for National Dialogue.

--------------
ATMOSPHERICS
--------------


5. (C) USCIRF Chair Felice Gaer described the Commission to
interlocutors as independent but part of the USG. She
emphasized that USCIRF focuses on human rights, including
religious freedom, consequently, many of the discussions with
SAG officials covered human rights in general rather than
just religious freedom issues.


6. (C) MOIA Minister Saleh bin Abdul Aziz bin Mohammad
Al-Shaikh told the Commission that direct dialogue with
groups such as USCIRF is useful, and MOCI Minister Dr. Iyad
bin Ameen Madani emphasized that it is simplistic for
visitors to ignore the diversity within the Kingdom. Madani
urged the Commission to be culturally sensitive, explaining
that Saudis represent a spectrum of beliefs from extremely
conservative to very liberal. He pointed out that Saudi
society is imperfect but claimed that it is neither
single-minded nor dogmatic.


7. (C) MOI Deputy Minister Dr. Ahmed Al-Salam questioned why
Saudi Arabia is designated as a Country of Particular
Concern, noting that this puts it in "the same category as
North Korea and China." While he said several of his SAG
colleagues approve of dialogue with groups such as USCIRF,
Al-Salam questioned the point if the dialogue fails to change
perceptions. He emphasized the importance of understanding
Saudi culture, society, and history, adding that Saudi
Arabia,s sovereignty and dignity must be respected.
Al-Salam stated that the USG should not "classify" Saudi
Arabia or put it on lists, explaining that such reports are
not helpful.



8. (C) Al-Salam agreed that the Commission should visit the
Kingdom in order to learn more about Saudi Arabia. However,
he expressed anger at what he termed negative treatment by
the U.S. of "a friendly country that wants to help the U.S."
Al-Salam continued that a Saudi would sacrifice everything
for his dignity, insisting that now people reject anything
that is from the U.S. or American.

--------------
TEXTBOOKS AND INTOLERANT LANGUAGE
--------------


9. (C) Several of the Commission,s interlocutors provided
their views on the issue of textbook reform. MFA Assistant
Minister Prince Turki Al-Kabeer stressed that the MFA has no
jurisdiction over issues relating to religious freedom or
textbook reform efforts but noted that he is a member of the
committee that reviews textbooks from all over the Kingdom.
MOIA Minister Al-Shaikh also said his Ministry has no
connection with the educational process in the Kingdom.
Culture and Information Minister Madani confirmed that Saudi
textbooks are continually reviewed and revised, noting that
there is much political pressure -- especially since 9/11 --
to do so. He said that although religion is part of the
standard, mandatory curricula in Saudi public schools, these
are not religious schools, adding that there is no forced
study of religion. (COMMENT: Religious study is mandatory in
Saudi schools. To say that it is not "forced" is somewhat
disingenuous. END COMMENT.)


10. (C) In response to concerns that such texts also contain
intolerant language regarding Shi,a, Al-Kabeer demanded
evidence that this kind of discrimination exists in either
SAG textbooks or schools. He continued that textbooks should
not teach Saudis to hate and that Saudis must be taught to
respect others. Both Al-Kabeer and Madani claimed that
textbooks containing intolerant language did not come from
the Saudis -- saying that intolerant and hateful thoughts and
ideas are not Saudi. They both blamed members of the Muslim
Brotherhood who had come to Saudi Arabia to teach, saying
they perpetuated intolerant attitudes. Al Kabeer told USCIRF
that the SAG had stopped these individuals from teaching but
had not fired them. (COMMENT: Many of Post,s interlocutors
-- including Saudis, other diplomats, and representatives of
international organizations -- agree that teachers, not
textbooks, are the biggest problem in teaching intolerance
(Ref C). END COMMENT.)


11. (C) Madani insisted that circumstances perpetuate hatred,
not textbooks, adding that Islam is not to blame for
intolerant individuals. He also pointed to "Israeli
oppression of Palestinians" for creating social and political
reasons for intolerance. Al-Kabeer echoed Madani's
statements by saying that extremists, including those who
trained or fought in Afghanistan, perpetuate hatred,
intolerance, and terrorism. He added that extremists use the
Israeli/Palestinian and Iraq conflicts to brainwash young men
and encourage hatred. They confuse religion with politics,
he said, and use religion to control the misguided.


12. (C) Al-Kabeer explained that the SAG checks all
literature distributed by Saudi embassies, claiming that no
one knew that materials distributed by their Islamic Affairs
sections contained intolerant language. However, once the
SAG became aware of this fact, said Al-Kabeer, it moved to
stop the distribution of such materials and destroyed them,
adding that the embassies, Islamic Affairs sections are now
temporarily closed so that they can be reorganized.


13. (C) MOIA,s Al-Shaikh said the SAG did not develop the
materials in Saudi embassies, Islamic Affairs sections,
stating that this was done by individuals and volunteers --
although after 9/11, the SAG has had more control over
contributors, who must be approved by MOIA and MFA.
Al-Shaikh continued that the Ministry of Culture and
Information supervises the production of these materials, as
well as reviews and approves the texts. Minister Al-Shaikh
promised to talk to Minister Madani about this issue.

--------------
TERRORISM/EXTREMISM
--------------


14. (C) Turning to the ongoing threat of terrorism, Al-Kabeer
stressed that Saudi Arabia has been going through a critical
period for the last four years and has had more than 30
terrorist attacks. However, he added, many people have been
arrested for terrorism and more than 700 re-educated. He

described these young men as generally nave, saying they
have often failed in education and usually have family and
psychological problems. After they have been re-educated,
said Al-Kabeer, the SAG gives these individuals jobs and
marries them off, emphasizing that the Government is on the
right track with this program. He added that the SAG is also
controlling how Saudi charities distribute funds because they
were misused to finance terrorists.


15. (C) MOCI Minister Madani said that MOI believes young
people are attracted to radicalism because they lack
information. He agreed that these "ignorant people" should
be educated, not punished, describing how respected scholars
are employed to teach people how to recognize the fallacies
of radicalism. He added that the SAG works with the families
of extremists to create support networks, saying this
approach is yet another way to fight terrorism.


16. (C) MOI Deputy Minister Al-Salam stated that if an imam
calls for violence or hate, it is considered a security issue
and investigated like any other crime. Al-Shaikh said
mosques deliver the anti-terrorism message by imposing
psychological pressure on imams. He said MOIA engages in a
three-step process to re-educate intolerant imams. First, in
direct public meetings that are also broadcast on television,
the Minister or Deputy Minister negotiates with imams.
Second, in private meetings, seven Islamic scholars from the
13 provinces negotiate with imams. As a last resort, the
Ministry fires imams. He said that hundreds of imams were
disciplined after 9/11, but now two or three months pass
without any problematic remarks. (NOTE: Per ConGen Jeddah
reporting on mosque sermons, there continue to be intolerant
remarks during these sermons. However, there are ever fewer
such incidents. END NOTE.)


17. (C) Al-Shaikh continued that MOIA began to requalify and
retrain imams a year ago. He said there are two courses for
them that are conducted by special centers -- not by the
Ministry. The courses include rhetoric, speech, and
psychology and introduce imams to new and different ideas.
Although there have been some good results, Al-Shaikh warned
that it takes a long time to convince people to change the
way they think.


18. (C) Al-Salam agreed that the SAG has been very successful
in combating terrorism, describing it as a criminal issue --
not political or religious. He said MOI has been careful to
adhere to the Qur'an, which calls for punishing only the
guilty. He said the SAG is also careful to balance the
rights of criminals, as well as those of their victims,
adding that MOI has a very successful awareness-raising
program in prisons and detention centers. Al-Salam said that
carefully selected imams conduct this training, noting that
its success is evident from the fact that there are now
"fewer police cars patrolling the streets and fewer check
points."

--------------
ISLAM -- GENERAL
--------------


19. (C) Discussing Islam in general, MOCI Minister Madani
told the Commission that Saudi religious scholars are no
longer unquestioned and taboos are being dismantled. He
emphasized that King Abdullah's leadership has been very
instrumental but noted that these changes are part of a
social process in which all Saudis participate. He described
Islam as "unstructured" and said Saudi society is "simple and
quite egalitarian."


20. (C) MOIA,s Al-Shaikh agreed that Saudis do not have an
interpretation of the Qur,an other than what the Qur,an and
Hadiths say. He emphasized that everyone has a choice
whether to believe in Islam, adding that the SAG does not
force anyone to embrace Islam. He said the right to freedom
of worship is "guaranteed" in Saudi Arabia, including for
non-Muslims.


21. (C) However, Al-Shaikh then said that the Qur,an states
there can be no other religion in the Arabian Peninsula
except Islam. He quoted the Prophet as saying that
non-Muslims cannot come near the two holiest mosques,
therefore, there can be no public places of worship for any
religion other than Islam in the Kingdom. Al-Shaikh agreed
with Madani, Al-Salam, and Human Rights Commission members
that there is no restriction on private non-Muslim worship,
warning that if the SAG allowed non-Muslim public places of
worship, its legitimacy would be questioned. This is not a
political or social decision, said Al-Shaikh, Muslim scholars

throughout the world insist on this.


22. (C) Al-Shaikh said there are 72,000 mosques in Saudi
Arabia that employ 120,000 people as imams, preachers, and in
other jobs. All mosque imams are not full-time employees --
many have other jobs -- the Ministry pays between 2,000 and
3,000 Saudi Riyals per month to imams (NOTE: Some imams also
use their MOIA salary to hire foreign imams, so not all imams
are MOIA employees. END NOTE). The Supreme Council of Ulema
is not officially part of the SAG or MOIA, he said, but it is
"linked" to the King. Ulema are independent, as are the
imams of the two holiest mosques, and receive instructions
directly from the King. However, those ulema who are
hard-liners and have unacceptable views about religious
minorities are counseled.

--------------
NON-MUSLIMS, RIGHT TO WORSHIP
--------------


23. (C) MFA,s Al-Kabeer pointed out that Saudi Arabia is a
"developing country" and emphasized that there is no law
restricting the entry of non-Muslims into the Kingdom. He
continued that there is no law prohibiting non-Muslims from
performing their religious duties in their own homes and in
their own way. He added that foreigners in the Kingdom have
the right to private worship and religious materials, saying
"no one comes in the middle of the night to arrest them."
(NOTE: There have been fewer incidents of such arrests during
the past year. END NOTE.) While Saudis and the SAG respect
non-Muslims, he insisted, non-Muslims must also respect
Muslims.


24. (C) In response to the suggestion that it is insufficient
for the SAG to allow private worship only in homes, MOI,s
Al-Salam countered that "asking the SAG to permit the
construction of churches or temples in the Kingdom is
comparable to asking the Vatican to allow the construction of
a mosque in Vatican City." He emphasized that Saudi Arabia
is the home of Islam's two holiest mosques, adding that
foreigners must respect Saudi laws and customs. He continued
that the SAG cannot allow foreigners to disrupt Saudi
society, saying it cannot act contrary to the wishes of the
Saudi people. He predicted serious, negative consequences if
the SAG did so.

--------------
DISCRIMINATION
--------------


25. (C) USCIRF,s interlocutors also discussed
discrimination of the Kingdom,s religious minorities --
especially the Shi,a. Al-Salam told the Commission that
approximately ten percent of Saudis are Shi'a, adding that,
"like all minorities, they claim discrimination just like
blacks and Hispanics complain about discrimination in the
U.S." (NOTE: Al-Salam lived in the U.S. for eleven years
and studied economics at the University of California at
Santa Barbara. END NOTE.)


26. (C) Minister Al-Shaikh said the Kingdom,s Shi,a have
their own people who are responsible for Shi,a mosques and
endowments. Shi,a mosques are not registered with the MOIA,
he said, adding that Shi,a do not want to have their mosques
supervised by the MOIA. Although there is no administrative
relationship between MOIA and the Shi,a, Al-Shaikh said that
if Shi,a need help, such as acquiring land or buildings, the
Ministry will respond. (COMMENT: Most Shi,a do not want an
administrative relationship between them and MOIA. MOIA
involvement would likely bring supervision of Shi,a imams,
the elimination of Shi,a motifs from mosques, etc.
Additionally, the SAG has historically been an impediment to
the approval for construction of Shia, mosques, although the
situation has improved. END COMMENT.)


27. (C) MOCI Minister Madani claimed no one has been either
hired or fired on the basis of religion, pointing out that
most foreign workers in the Kingdom are not Muslim. He
continued that there is no tradition or history of violence
in Saudi Arabia due to differences in religion. While Madani
admitted the necessity for greater political participation,
more freedom of religion, more tolerance, and more
accountability, he insisted that this is an ongoing process.
He pointed out the importance of balancing reform against
facilitating social stability in what he described as this
"very complex country."

--------------
IRAQ
E

--------------


28. (C) Several of USCIRF,s interlocutors pointed to
regional crises -- particularly the war in Iraq -- as a tool
used by extremists to further their aims. MOI Deputy
Minister Al-Salam warned USCIRF against trying to impose
values on the Saudis, such as religious freedom and
democracy, saying the U.S. failed to make Iraq a model
democracy precisely because it ignored culture, society, and
circumstances. MFA Assistant Minister Al-Kabeer also pointed
out that U.S. efforts to promote democracy led to the crisis
in Iraq and facilitated Hamas, rise to power in the
Palestinian territories.


29. (C) Al-Salam suggested that, if the USG demands that
non-Muslim be allowed to worship publicly in the Kingdom, "it
is asking for civil war." He stressed that it is important
to first know what Saudis want and not assume that they want
what Americans want. He demanded that Americans and the USG
respect Saudis, Saudi society, and the SAG, stressing that
the SAG wants stability. He continued that the SAG is caught
between the USG, which demands human rights such as religious
freedom, and terrorists, who claim the SAG aligns itself with
infidels.


30. (C) MOCI Minister Madani said the USCIRF visit proved
that the USG is promoting a particular point of view or
belief, accusing the Commission of being "a tool of U.S.
foreign policy." USCIRF Chair Gaer countered that the
Commission examines how countries respect universal human
rights, especially the right to religion, emphasizing that
human rights are not culturally relative -- but inalienable
and universal.

--------------
RELIGIOUS AND REGULAR POLICE
--------------


31. (C) Al-Salam claimed that many countries have a body
analogous to the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and
Prevention of Vice (CPVPV),noting that the CPVPV,s
religious police monitor behavior to ensure it is ethical and
to prevent sexual harassment of women. He said the CPVPV
coordinates with MOI, but emphasized that the CPVPV is
independent and has nothing to do with MOI police, nor does
MOI have authority over the CPVPV.


32. (C) HRC representatives, including Chair Turki
Al-Sudairy, indicated that they have met with the CPVPV
President Sheikh Ibrahim bin Abdullah Al-Ghaith several
times. Board member Dr. Mohamed Al-Khunaizi, a Shi,a
activist, agreed that there are rogue members of the CPVPV
and noted that that the HRC will give lectures on human
rights to the religious police. Board member Ibrahim
Al-Muneef stressed that the CPVPV, which was created more
than 60 years ago, has generally not been held accountable
for its actions. He emphasized that the SAG has recently
held the CPVPV accountable, partly due to the efforts of HRC
Chair Al-Sudairy. Al-Khunaizi pointed out that it is
significant that Saudis now question the religious police
because previously, no one said anything if they made a
mistake.


33. (C) Regarding the regular police, Al-Salam denied that
they are not held accountable, insisting the police must
protect human rights -- not violate them. He explained that
MOI has several special, independent investigations units
that hold the police accountable, pointing out that the
police are held to a higher standard and punished severely if
they commit a crime.


34. (C) MOI's Bureau of Prosecution and Investigation
investigates complaints about prisons, which are run by the
Directorate of Prisons, as well as the treatment of
prisoners, said Al-Salam. He stated that abuse and torture
are not acceptable, noting that both the HRC and the NSHR
visit prisons. Additionally, according to Al-Salam, MOI
trains the police regarding international human rights
agreements, including the Convention Against Torture,
although he could not provide details about the training or
how many police attended.
GFOELLER