EGYPT'S MUFTI ON U.S. VISIT, IRAQ, REFORMING

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 CAIRO 002654

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 08/27/2017
TAGS: PREL KISL PTER KIRF IZ EG
SUBJECT: EGYPT'S MUFTI ON U.S. VISIT, IRAQ, REFORMING
JIHADISTS

REF: CAIRO 1638

Classified By: Ambassador Francis J. Ricciardone, for
reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).


1. (C) Summary: In a 90-minute meeting on August 26, the
Ambassador and the Mufti of the Republic, Dr. Ali Goma'a,
discussed the Mufti's possible travel to the U.S. and Canada
in December, and a mid-August meeting in Cairo of Iraqi Sunni
and Shi'a leaders with Egyptian Muslim leaders, orchestrated
in part by Canon Andrew White. Goma'a also spoke in detail
about his efforts with the Ministry of Interior to influence
the Islamic Jihad's imprisoned leaders to renounce violence.
End summary.

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POSSIBLE DECEMBER VISIT TO THE U.S.
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2. (C) The Mufti noted that he plans to travel to Canada in
late December, and that the Egyptian Embassy in Washington
had approached him about also visiting the U.S. in that
timeframe. The Ambassador encouraged him to visit, and
offered to coordinate with the Egyptian MFA regarding
arranging meetings, as desired, with USG officials. (Note:
During a June visit to London, Goma'a met with then UK PM
Tony Blair and current PM Gordon Brown at a Cambridge
University-sponsored interfaith dialogue conference. End
note). Goma'a commented that he has been a frequent visitor
to the U.S. since his first trip in 1981, but that he last
traveled to the U.S. in 1999, and had not returned since due
in part to his concerns about "invasive security procedures
and inspections" since September 11. Noting this his
daughter lives in North Carolina and that his two
grandchildren are American citizens, Goma'a expressed his
desire that his office develop a stronger relationship with
the U.S. writ large, and with American religious institutions
in particular - "we have strong ties with the UK and France,
but not with America, and so we would like to found a real,
meaningful relationship and dialogue with you." The
Ambassador welcomed this sentiment, and gave the Mufti the
text of President Bush's June 27 speech at the Islamic Center
of Washington, and President Eisenhower's June 1957 speech at
the same venue. He also presented our new Library of
Congress (LOC) representative, Dr. Fawzi Tadros, who invited
the Mufti to participate as a speaker in the LOC's Middle
East seminar program in Washington. The Mufti expressed
eagerness to cooperate with the LOC.

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RENUNCIATIONS OF THE JIHAD GROUP:
"A SINGULAR OCCURRENCE"
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3. (C) When queried as to his thoughts on the recent
doctrinal revisions of the Islamic Jihad (IJ) (reftel),in
which the group's leaders called for a halt to all "combat
operations" and advocated a turn away from violence, the
Mufti spoke at length regarding the struggle in Islam between
extremists and moderates. He said that the renunciations of
IJ were the result of a years-long process, that is a
"step-by-step affair ... In my view, there are three stages
in this evolution - (1) a criminal who advocates killing, (2)
an extremist who condemns violence, but who still has many
extreme and objectionable views and (3) a moderate Muslim."
He lamented that the IJ doctrine "still includes many
mistaken interpretations and radical positions that I do not
condone - they remain extremists, but at least are no longer
advocates of killing. Now they can move to the next stage,
and become moderate Muslims." Goma'a noted that "we must
ease the extremists back slowly into mainstream society and
beliefs. We cannot imprison an entire society, so must work
to impact the minds of Egyptians, showing them that extremism
and killing is not the right path." He observed that
thousands of former members of IJ and the Islamic Group (aka
Gamaat Islamiyaa) had condemned violence in recent years,
reflected in the fact that after Sadat's assassination,
16,000 extremists were in prison, but currently "less than
1,000 are in prison."


4. (C) The Mufti stressed that the IJ's doctrinal changes
"came from within the group itself, they were not imposed,"
but also noted that the "entire project was overseen by the
Ministry of Interior." Goma'a noted that, both prior to his
becoming Mufti in 2003 (when he was an Al Azhar professor of
Islamic jurisprudence) and after his appointment, he had
quietly met several times with some of the IJ leaders. He
had provided them carefully selected books to influence their
thinking (he promised to send us the approximately 17
specific titles). The Mufti also engaged the IJ leaders by
reviewing the drafts of their statement renouncing violence,

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and "changed a word or two here and there, in an effort to
make it less extreme." Goma'a opined that the IJ's
metamorphosis was "a unique experience that is unlikely to be
repeated with other extremist groups ... there was a singular
set of circumstances surrounding this lengthy process. Some
key IJ thinkers died, others grew older and thus became less
radical. Family relationships also were a factor in each
case. Overall, there were chinks in the group that were
exploited to result in this philosophical step back from
violence ... I am doubtful that exactly the same process can
be repeated with other extremist groups."

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IRAQ IS A BLOODBATH; WE WANT TO HELP
--------------


5. (C) Regarding the recent meeting in Cairo of Iraqi Sunni
and Shi'a leaders with Egyptian Muslim leaders, orchestrated
in part by Canon Andrew White, the Mufti said he welcomed the
initiative, and had told the Embassy of Iraq in Cairo "long
ago" that he "would be happy to assist in any way possible
with inter-sect dialogue," although, "now, we are very late
in the game." Goma'a noted that such efforts were "one step
towards a solution," and that, "in my office, we have been
brainstorming ways in which we can assist Iraqis ... it is a
tragic situation, and we want to help." (Note: Egyptian
media reported on Goma'a's exhortation to the Iraqi visitors
to "next time include their Christian brothers." End note).
The Mufti criticized the U.S. decision to invade Iraq, and
lamented that "the U.S. did not listen to the advice of your
Egyptian friends in 2003," but commented that he did not
think an American withdrawal under current circumstances
would demonstrably improve the situation. "If you stay, there
will be a bloodbath. And if you leave, there will be a
bloodbath. It is a terrible quandary."

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DEMOCRACY, AND COUNTERING UBL
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6. (C) Noting that he is a "believer in democracy," the Mufti
said, "I consider the core of democracy as the right of
people to express themselves freely, and to enjoy a variety
of freedoms in their lives. I support this." Goma'a also
spoke of his personal efforts to promote moderate Islam, and
the challenges of "keeping children from watching Usama bin
Laden on TV, and seeing him as a strong, heroic leader who
they want to emulate," and criticized Arab satellite TV
stations for broadcasting UBL's videotapes and thereby giving
him a platform. The Ambassador queried the Mufti regarding
his July 21 statements, posted on a Newsweek-Washington Post
internet forum, which included a controversial comment that
there is no "worldly punishment" for conversion away from
Islam. The Mufti, clearly not anxious to get into the issue,
was unresponsive on this point.


RICCIARDONE