POPE SHENOUDA III ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, RELATIONS

C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 03 CAIRO 002332

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

NSC STAFF FOR WATERS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/30/2027
TAGS: PGOV PREL PHUM KIRF KISL EG
SUBJECT: POPE SHENOUDA III ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, RELATIONS
WITH U.S.

REF: A. CAIRO 2292

B. CAIRO 1695

C. CAIRO 1427

D. CAIRO 1420

E. 2006 CAIRO 4243

Classified by Ambassador Francis Ricciardone for reasons 1.4
(b) and (d).

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Summary
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1. (C) The Ambassador raised religious freedom issues with
the Coptic Orthodox Pope, Shenouda III, on July 26. In an
extended and unusually substantive response, Shenouda
addressed his concerns about some "critical" matters,
including controversies over conversion as well as what he
alleged was the GOE's inability to contain extremist Islamist
ideology. The Pope also expressed his willingness to work
with the Library of Congress (LOC) to preserve rare
recordings of Coptic Orthodox hymns. The Pope, whose kidney
problems led to a hastily-planned trip to the Cleveland
Clinic in early July, appeared vigorous, but also noted that
he plans to return to the U.S. for several weeks in August,
both for additional treatment and an active pastoral program
in several cities. He was warmly nostalgic about his
contacts with U.S. presidents in the past. End summary.


2. (C) The Ambassador, accompanied by LOC Director, LES
political specialist, and poloff (notetaker),called on the
Pope at the Abbassiya Cathedral on July 26. The 83 year-old
Pope, who appeared vigorous despite recent ill-health, was in
an expansive mood, and offered his candid views on current
issues of religious freedom in Egypt. The Ambassador noted
the Pope's publicized recent letter to Mubarak as a
significant statement on behalf of religious freedom, and
asked whether he could comment on any response from Mubarak.
The Ambassador asked the Pope's advice as to how best the USG
could support the cause of religious freedom in Egypt. The
Pope prefaced his response by noting that the GOE is
extremely sensitive to the appearance of "foreign
interference" in Egypt's religious and sectarian issues. He
further opined that "many people abuse freedom, especially in
the newspapers." He declined to respond directly on the
subject of his letter to Mubarak.

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Conversion
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3. (C) The Pope said that conversion, especially away from
Islam, remains a divisive and potentially incendiary topic.
The Pope did not mention the recent controversy (ref A)
regarding a Muslim-born woman in Alexandria who reportedly
converted to Christianity, but noted that the traditional
Islamic view, that apostasy should be punished by death, is
at odds with the Quranic injunction that "There is no
compulsion in religion," and with the guarantees of freedom
of religion in the Egyptian constitution.


4. (C) The Pope noted that he had been particularly
concerned by an April 24 court ruling (ref C),against the
right of Christian-born citizens who had converted to Islam
to recover their original Christian identities. He expressed
relief that the Supreme Administrative Court had decided on
July 2 that it would re-examine the Administrative Court
ruling on re-conversion to Christianity, and he said that he
is hopeful that the converts will receive a favorable ruling
in September.


5. (C) Note: The Pope, who has customarily demonstrated
strong public support for President Mubarak--for example, the
Pope endorsed Mubarak in the last presidential election in
2005 and instructed the Coptic Orthodox faithful to vote for
Mubarak--surprised many when he addressed a public letter of
complaint to Mubarak in May. In the letter, which was
published in Al-Keraza, the official church magazine several
days after the Bamha sectarian violence (Ref D),the Pope
asked Mubarak to "end injustice imposed on the Copts and to
"activate" constitutional provisions that ensure equal rights
for all Egyptians regardless of religion. The Pope blamed
the security services for not taking sufficient measures
against those who perpetrated violence against Egypt's
Christian minority, and he called upon Mubarak to review the
April court verdicts (Ref C) which forbid Christian-born
converts to Islam from re-converting to Christianity. The

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GOE has not responded publicly to Shenouda's letter. Many
observers see the letter as evidence of Shenouda's growing
frustration with the GOE's perceived failure to address
sectarian tensions. End note.

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Islam and Tolerance
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6. (C) The Pope said that he thinks the Sheikh of Al-Azhar,
Sayid Mohamed Tantawi, and Minister of Islamic Endowments,
Hamdy Zaqzouk, are "moderate and noble" men, but that Egypt's
Grand Mufti, Ali Gomaa, by contrast, is "so different." The
Pope expressed concern at Gomaa's penchant for stirring up
controversy and for focusing attention on petty or even
bizarre issues. He said that the Mufti's fatwa on the
sanctity of the Prophet Mohamed's urine (ref B) was not the
first time the Mufti had embraced a controversial position.
For example, the Mufti had reportedly ruled that if a fly
landed on a Muslim's food, it was permissible to consume the
food so long as both wings of the insect had touched the
food. According to Shenouda, the Mufti based this ruling on
a prophetic tradition that said that each fly has both a pure
wing and a polluted wing. Shenouda said that the Mufti's
July 22 interview with Newsweek on the permissibility of
apostasy within Islam had been disingenuous, because of his
caveats about the grave nature of the sin of apostasy as well
as the need to contain any possibility of social strife.


7. (C) Shenouda lamented the GOE's failure to tackle the
Islamist agenda at the level of ideas and religion. While
the GOE's fear of the Muslim Brotherhood leads them to try to
control the MB in the political arena, the GOE appears
reluctant to challenge the MB ideology at a religious level.
For example, the Pope said that the GOE addressed recent
incidents of Muslim attacks on Christians (ref D) by
brokering "meaningless conciliation" sessions, rather than by
trying to prosecute those (Muslims) accused of fomenting and
conducting the violence. Both Egypt's Christians and the
West, said Shenouda, are threatened by the ideology of "an
aggressive minority" within Islam whose
socio-political-religious outlook justifies violence in the
name of the faith. Despite many Quranic passages which call
for peace and tolerance, said Shenouda, there are also many
key passages which can be used to promote intolerance and
hatred. The Ambassador and the Pope agreed that we must
carefully press for and support intra-Muslim dialogues so
that moderates might prevail.


8. (C) Shenouda also noted that USG policies in
Afghanistan, Iraq, and Israel-Palestine bear some
responsibility for current tensions. "Fanatics think
President Bush opposes Islam because he opposes terror," said
Shenouda. If the USG can resolve these three divisive
issues, the Pope continued, you will remove these issues as
potential sources of continuing controversy. Shenouda warmly
recalled his meetings in the White House with Presidents
Carter and George H.W. Bush, and commended their efforts on
behalf of Middle East peace. (Note: The Pope did not
directly ask to meet President Bush during his upcoming visit
to Cleveland, Jersey City, and Boston, but his statement of
fond recollections for his previous contacts with U.S.
presidents implied he would welcome such an opportunity.)

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LOC Issues
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9. (SBU) The Ambassador also took advantage of the meeting
with the Pope to introduce Cairo's new Egyptian-American LOC
Director, Dr. Fawzi Tadros. We conveyed the request of
Librarian of Congress Billington for Shenouda's assistance to
facilitate LOC-Coptic Orthodox Church cooperation to preserve
rare recordings of Coptic hymns and other sacred documents.
The Pope expressed his willingness to work with LOC.

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The Pope's Health
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10. (C) The Pope, who will turn 84 on August 3, has long
suffered from chronic kidney disease and other age-related
ailments. Thoughts of his eventual passing and the related
succession process are often on the minds of observers here
(ref E). In late June, a turn for the worse prompted an
emergency trip to Cleveland. The treatment seems to have
succeeded. Upon his return to Cairo airport, the Pope noted

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that he felt much improved, but that he was too old for a
needed kidney transplant. One of the Pope's senior Bishops
(protect) told us that the Pope continues to feel unwell and
that he needs "special treatment" which can only be provided
by the Cleveland Clinic. Despite these health concerns, the
Pope appeared vigorous, mentally sharp, and even witty in his
meeting with us. He noted that in addition to his planned
medical treatment, during his visit he will also tend to the
affairs of the Coptic Orthodox community in the United
States. The Pope noted with pride that at the beginning of
his tenure, in 1971, the United States had just two Coptic
Orthodox churches. Today there are "170... though some of
those are priests without churches, or churches without
priests."
RICCIARDONE