Identifier
Created
Classification
Origin
07CAIRO1603
2007-05-30 18:05:00
CONFIDENTIAL
Embassy Cairo
Cable title:  

AMBASSADOR'S MEETING WITH MINISTER OF INTERIOR ON

Tags:  PREL PHUM KIRF KDEM KWMN KCRM EG 
pdf how-to read a cable
VZCZCXYZ0016
RR RUEHWEB

DE RUEHEGA #1603 1501805
ZNY CCCCC ZZH ZUI RUEWMCF9799 1501810
R 301805Z MAY 07
FM AMEMBASSY CAIRO
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC 0000
INFO ARAB ISRAELI COLLECTIVE
ARAB LEAGUE COLLECTIVE
C O N F I D E N T I A L CAIRO 001603 

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

DEPARTMENT FOR NEA/ELA, DRL/IRF, DRL/NESCA, AND NSC FOR
WATERS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 05/30/2017
TAGS: PREL PHUM KIRF KDEM KWMN KCRM EG
SUBJECT: AMBASSADOR'S MEETING WITH MINISTER OF INTERIOR ON
AYMAN NOUR, RELIGIOUS AND SCHOLARLY FREEDOM, AND ANTI-TIP

REF: A. CAIRO 1427

B. CAIRO 1502

CLASSIFIED BY: AMBASSADOR FRANCIS J. RICCIARDONE,
FOR REASONS 1.4 (B) AND (D)

C O N F I D E N T I A L CAIRO 001603

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

DEPARTMENT FOR NEA/ELA, DRL/IRF, DRL/NESCA, AND NSC FOR
WATERS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 05/30/2017
TAGS: PREL PHUM KIRF KDEM KWMN KCRM EG
SUBJECT: AMBASSADOR'S MEETING WITH MINISTER OF INTERIOR ON
AYMAN NOUR, RELIGIOUS AND SCHOLARLY FREEDOM, AND ANTI-TIP

REF: A. CAIRO 1427

B. CAIRO 1502

CLASSIFIED BY: AMBASSADOR FRANCIS J. RICCIARDONE,
FOR REASONS 1.4 (B) AND (D)


1. (C) SUMMARY: IN A WIDE-RANGING MAY 29 MEETING WITH
MINISTER OF INTERIOR HABIB EL ADLY, THE AMBASSADOR AGAIN
PUSHED THE GOE TO CHANGE ITS POLICY OF LISTING ONLY THREE
RELIGIONS ON NATIONAL ID CARDS, AND ASKED THAT THE MINISTRY
OF INTERIOR (MOI) ENSURE THE SAFETY OF RECENTLY RELEASED
CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY BAHAA EL ACCAD. ADLY WAS IMMOVABLE
ON AYMAN NOUR, AND DECLARED THAT THE AMBASSADOR SHOULD "TRY
TO FORGET ABOUT NOUR." HE SUPPORTS PENDING GOVERNMENT
ANTI-TIP MEASURES, AND PROMISED TO LOOK INTO THE REASONS
BEHIND AN INCREASE IN THE GOE'S REFUSALS OF PERMISSION TO
FULBRIGHT SCHOLARS TO WORK IN EGYPT. HE DID NOT RESPOND TO
THE AMBASSADOR ABOUT THE RECENT DETENTIONS OF BLOGGERS. HE
CRITICIZED THE EGYPTIAN POLITICAL OPPOSITION, AND THIS WEEK'S
"FORUM ON DEMOCRACY AND REFORM IN THE ARAB WORLD" IN QATAR.
END SUMMARY.

--------------
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM ISSUES
--------------


2. (C) RECALLING PREVIOUS CONVERSATIONS ON THIS SUBJECT WITH
MOI AND MFA OFFICIALS, AMBASSADOR STRESSED THE FAR-REACHING
POSITIVE IMPACT THAT AN EGYPTIAN LOWER COURT DECISION WOULD
HAVE, IF ALLOWED TO STAND, WHICH WOULD HAVE REMOVED THE
REQUIREMENT TO IDENTIFY ONE'S RELIGION ON THE NATIONAL I.D.
CARD AS ONLY ONE OF THREE OPTIONS (MUSLIM, CHRISTIAN, JEW).
THE AMBASSADOR STATED THAT OTHER GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES HAVE
TOLD US THAT THE MOI ASSERTS "NATIONAL SECURITY REASONS" FOR
REQUIRING RELIGIOUS IDENTIFICATION AT ALL, AND FOR
RESTRICTING THIS TO ONLY THREE RELIGIONS. HE FURTHER NOTED
THAT THE CURRENT LAW HARSHLY IMPACTS THE LIVES OF BAHA'IS IN
EGYPT, AND ALSO CONTRAVENES THE EGYPTIAN CONSTITUTION, WHICH
ALLOWS FREEDOM OF RELIGION. ADLY REPLIED THAT THE MOI'S
APPEAL WAS AN AUTOMATIC BUREAUCRATIC MEASURE UNDERTAKEN NOT
BY THE MOI, BUT RATHER BY THE COUNCIL OF STATE ADVOCACY. ONE

OF THE ADVOCATES ON THAT PANEL, WHO HOLDS RESPONSIBILITY FOR
MOI MATTERS BUT WHO DOES NOT REPRESENT THE MOI, IS REQUIRED
TO AUTOMATICALLY CONTEST ANY RULING AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.
HE OPINED THAT THIS IS A "LEGAL MATTER - IF A RULING IS
RATIFIED BY THE HIGH ADMINISTRATIVE COURT, WE MUST IMPLEMENT
IT." AFTER THE AMBASSADOR CONTINUED PRESSING HIM ON THE
ISSUE, ADLY AVERRED THAT, SHOULD A HIGH COURT RULE THAT THE
NATIONAL ID CARD POLICY SHOULD CHANGE, THE MOI WOULD HAVE NO
"NATIONAL SECURITY" OR OTHER REASON TO OPPOSE IT, AND COULD
IMPLEMENT SUCH A CHANGE. ANSWERING THE AMBASSADORS QUERY AS
TO THE APPROPRIATE GOE OFFICIAL FOR THE USG TO NEXT APPROACH
ON THE ISSUE, THE MINISTER ADVISED THAT WE RAISE IT WITH THE
MINISTER OF JUSTICE. ADLY WARNED THAT WE SHOULD NOT RAISE
THIS WITH THE CONCERNED OFFICIAL OF THE COUNCIL OF STATE
ADVOCACY, LEST THIS CONSTITUTE ILLEGAL TAMPERING WITH A
JUDICIAL PROCESS. (NOTE: WE HAVE RAISED THIS ISSUE
DISCREETLY WITH TWO SUCCESSIVE PUBLIC PROSECUTORS AND SENIOR
JUDGES, AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO. END NOTE).


3. (C) THE AMBASSADOR RAISED THE CASE OF BAHAA EL ACCAD (PER
REF A, A MUSLIM-BORN CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY WHO WAS RECENTLY
RELEASED AFTER SPENDING TWO YEARS IN DETENTION WITHOUT CHARGE
OR TRIAL),NOTING THAT HIS RELEASE WAS A POSITIVE STEP. HE
REPORTED THAT NONETHELESS, ACCAD FEELS UNDER DAILY THREAT AND
FEARS FOR HIS PERSONAL SECURITY, NOT ONLY FROM HIS NEIGHBORS
BUT ALSO FROM THE STATE ITSELF. THE AMBASSADOR URGED ADLY TO
TAKE ANY APPROPRIATE MEASURES TO ENSURE ACCADS SAFETY. ADLY
WAS DISMISSIVE OF ACCADS CONCERNS, OPINING THAT HE IS
"IMAGINING THINGS," AND "WHAT HE REALLY WANTS IS ASYLUM IN
THE U.S. OR CANADA." ADLY STATED THAT ACCAD'S "FEAR OF HIS
NEIGHBORS IS BELIEVABLE, BUT HIS FEAR OF THE STATE IS NOT
BELIEVABLE. IF EXTREMISTS START TO AGITATE ABOUT HIM, THEN
WE WILL GET INVOLVED, BUT RIGHT NOW, WE DO NOT FOLLOW HIS
CASE IN THE MOI."

--------------
"WHO IS AYMAN NOUR?!"
--------------


4. (C) HIGHLIGHTING AYMAN NOUR'S POOR HEALTH, THE NEGATIVE
IMPACT OF HIS CONTINUED DETENTION ON EGYPTIAN-US RELATIONS AS
WELL AS ON PERCEPTIONS OF EGYPT WORLDWIDE, THE AMBASSADOR
URGED THE MINISTER TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF NOURS MEDICAL CASE
AS A NON-POLITICAL, HUMANITARIAN PRETEXT TO RELEASE AYMAN
NOUR ON JUNE 12, WHEN THE JUDICIAL STATE COUNCIL NEXT HOLDS A
HEARING ON THE CASE (REF B). ADLY ERUPTED INTO A 10-MINUTE
SOLILOQUY ON NOUR, CHARGING THAT THE FOCUS ON NOUR'S CASE AS
AYMAN NOUR, RELIGIOUS AND SCHOLARLY FREEDOM, AND ANTI-TIP

A POLITICAL ISSUE IS "NOT FAIR." "WHO IS AYMAN NOUR, THIS
CRIMINAL WHO BUILT A PARTY ON A BASE OF FORGERIES, AND
THOUGHT HE COULD DEFEAT HOSNI MUBARAK," HE FULMINATED, ADDING
THAT "MUBARAK HAS BEEN A LONG-TIME FRIEND OF THE U.S.
THROUGH DIFFICULT TIMES, AND NOW YOUR GOVERNMENT CRITICIZES
HIM BECAUSE OF AN ISSUE LIKE AYMAN NOUR?!" ADLY ADVISED THAT
IT IS "IMPOSSIBLE" THAT NOUR WILL BE RELEASED, "FOR ONE
SIMPLE REASON ... WHY NOUR? WE HAVE MANY PRISONERS IN
DETENTION, WHOSE CRIMES WERE LESS THAN NOURS. WE CANT
RELEASE NOUR, AND LEAVE THEM IN PRISON."


5. (C) THE AMBASSADOR RESPONDED THAT NOUR AND HIS FAMILY HAVE
SUFFERED THROUGHOUT HIS DETENTION, AND THAT EVEN IF RELEASED,
NOUR IS RUINED PROFESSIONALLY AND WILL NOT BE ABLE TO
RE-ENTER POLITICS FOR YEARS, ACCORDING TO EGYPTIAN LAW.
STATING THAT NOUR'S CASE "REPRESENTS OPPRESSION IN EGYPT AND
DAMAGES EGYPT'S REPUTATION IN THE WORLD," THE AMBASSADOR SAID
THAT IT WOULD BE IN THE GOE'S INTEREST TO RELEASE NOUR, AND
THAT PERHAPS NOUR MIGHT SUBSEQUENTLY AGREE TO TAKE A FEW
YEARS SABBATICAL IN THE U.S. OR EUROPE. ASSERTING THAT THE
DECISION WILL BE UP TO THE PRESIDING JUDGES, AS "THE STATE
CANNOT TELL THE JUDGE TO RELEASE NOUR," ADLY ADVISED, "TRY TO
FORGET ABOUT NOUR."

--------------
TIP LEGISLATION, FULBRIGHT SCHOLARS, BLOGGERS
AND NEW EMBASSY ADVISORS
--------------


6. (C) THE AMBASSADOR NOTED THAT, WHILE EGYPT IS CURRENTLY
WORKING TO STRENGTHEN LEGISLATION TO COMBAT THE TRAFFICKING
OF CHILDREN, SIMILAR LEGAL EFFORTS TO FIGHT THE TRAFFICKING
OF PERSONS OVERALL ARE NOT PROGRESSING. TRAFFICKING OF
ADULTS, PARTICULARLY FOR PURPOSES OF PROSTITUTION, WAS ALSO A
PRIORITY TARGET OF OUR GLOBAL CAMPAIGN, AS WELL AS MRS.
MUBARAK'S. ADLY ASSURED HIM THAT ANTI-TIP REVISIONS TO THE
CHILDREN'S LAW ARE "BEING STUDIED AT THE MINISTERIAL LEVEL,"
AND THAT "MRS. MUBARAK IS INDEED WORKING NOT ONLY FOR THE
PROTECTION OF CHILDREN, BUT ALSO FOR WOMEN." ADLY AVERRED
THAT THE EGYPTIAN POLICE ARE WORKING TO COMBAT TIP, BUT
AGREED THAT "POLICE WORK ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH." HE COMMENTED
THAT A PENDING PRIME MINISTERIAL DECREE THAT WILL CREATE AN
INTER-AGENCY COMMITTEE TO COORDINATE ANTI-TIP EFFORTS IS
"CURRENTLY UNDER REVIEW BY THE COMPONENT MINISTRIES."


7. (C) LAUDING THE BENEFITS OF THE FULBRIGHT PROGRAM TO
EGYPTIAN-AMERICAN ACADEMIC AND CULTURAL EXCHANGES, THE
AMBASSADOR ADVISED ADLY OF AN INCREASE OVER THE PAST SEVERAL
YEARS IN THE GOES REFUSAL RATE OF FULBRIGHT SCHOLARS, NOTING
THAT THE GOE DENIED PERMISSION TO CONDUCT RESEARCH IN EGYPT
TO AN ESTIMATED 23% OF THE 2007-08 ASPIRING U.S. GRANTEES.
HE REQUESTED TWO MEASURES: FIRST, MORE ACCEPTANCE OF WHAT
WERE OTHERWISE ORDINARY TOPICS OF SOCIAL AND POLITICAL
RESEARCH IN EGYPT AND THE REGION; SECOND, IF THE GOE OBJECTED
TO SOME AMERICAN SCHOLARS STUDYING TOPICS PERCEIVED TO BE SO
SENSITIVE AS TO THREATEN STATE SECURITY, THAT THE MOI ADVISE
THE EMBASSY AS EARLY IN THE PROCESS AS POSSIBLE, SO THE
SCHOLARS COULD UNDERTAKE THEIR RESEARCH IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.
THE AMBASSADOR FLAGGED THAT THE REGRETTABLE RESULT OF THE
PROBLEMS THE FULBRIGHT PROGRAM IS HAVING IS THAT U.S.
SCHOLARS ARE DISCOURAGED FROM STUDYING IN EGYPT, AND ARE
GOING ELSEWHERE IN THE ARAB WORLD. ADLY SEEMED GENUINELY
SURPRISED, STATING THAT, "THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN AMERICANS
STUDYING 'SENSITIVE TOPICS' IN EGYPT - THEY STUDY THAT AND
MORE AT THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY IN CAIRO!" HE NOTED THE ONLY
POTENTIALLY SENSITIVE RESEARCH TOPIC IS RELIGION, "WHICH
MIGHT RAISE COMPLICATIONS WITH AL AZHAR." ADLY ASKED THAT
THE EMBASSY PROVIDE FURTHER DETAILS ON THE DELAYS TO AN MOI
POINT OF CONTACT HE PROMISED TO DESIGNATE, SO THAT "WE CAN
STUDY WHAT THE PROBLEM IS."


8. (C) COMPLIMENTING ADLY ON THE PROGRESS IN FREEDOM OF
EXPRESSION IN EGYPT OVER THE PAST YEARS, THE AMBASSADOR CITED
U.S. AND WORLDWIDE CONCERN AT THE RECENT DETENTIONS OF
BLOGGERS. NOTING THAT, "THE PUNISHMENT SHOULD SUIT THE
CRIME," THE AMBASSADOR SAID THAT WHEN BLOGGERS ARE SENTENCED
TO 4 YEARS IN PRISON FOR CRITICIZING RELIGION AND THE
PRESIDENT, "IT LOOKS EXCESSIVE TO THE WORLD." HE REPORTED TO
ADLY THAT CONGRESSWOMAN MOORE HAD RAISED THIS ISSUE WITH
MUBARAK THE PREVIOUS DAY. ADLY DID NOT RESPOND DIRECTLY TO
THIS POINT, OTHER THAN TO NOTE THAT, "THE FULL TRUTH ABOUT
OUR COUNTRY MUST REACH THE WORLD, SO THAT AN INCORRECT
PICTURE OF EGYPT IS NOT PUT FORWARD."


9. (C) THE AMBASSADOR INTRODUCED THE EMBASSYS NEW JUSTICE
ATTACH AS A RESOURCE FOR U.S.-EGYPTIAN CONSULTATIONS IN ALL
AREAS OF THE RULE OF LAW, FROM LEGISLATION TO IMPLEMENTATION.
HE ALSO ADVISED ADLY OF THE ARRIVAL OF EMBASSY'S NEW SENIOR
AYMAN NOUR, RELIGIOUS AND SCHOLARLY FREEDOM, AND ANTI-TIP

LAW ENFORCEMENT ADVISOR; THE MINISTER WELCOMED HIS PLANS TO
TRAIN AND WORK WITH THE EGYPTIAN POLICE.

--------------
THOUGHTS ON POLITICAL OPPOSITION
--------------


10. (C) PROMPTED BY AN INCOMING CALL REGARDING A RULING ON
THE CASE OF OPPOSITION MP ESMAT ANWAR SADAT (SEPTEL),ADLY
MUSED THAT "THE OPPOSITION IN EGYPT DOES NOT CONSIST OF MORE
THAN 50 PEOPLE." HE NOTED THAT, "REGRETTABLY, SOME OF THESE
OPPOSITIONISTS ARE TOUTING AN UNFAIR AND INCORRECT IMAGE OF
EGYPT, LIKE THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO AGITATE EGYPTIAN WORKERS
TO STRIKE." ADLY PROFESSED NOT TO UNDERSTAND WHY EGYPTIANS
WERE PARTICIPATING IN THIS WEEK'S "FORUM ON DEMOCRACY AND
REFORM IN THE ARAB WORLD" IN QATAR, AND ASSERTED THAT AN
EGYPTIAN OPPOSITIONIST HAD TOLD HIM HE WOULD NOT ATTEND,
BECAUSE HE DID NOT WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THE OTHER
CONFERENCE ATTENDEES, AND THAT, "THIS EVENT WILL NOT ACHIEVE
ANYTHING."
RICCIARDONE