Identifier
Created
Classification
Origin
06VATICAN57
2006-03-31 15:49:00
CONFIDENTIAL
Embassy Vatican
Cable title:  

HOLY SEE'S CHINA NEGOTIATOR "HOPEFUL BUT WITHOUT ILLUSIONS"

Tags:  PREL SOCI KIRF VT CH 
pdf how-to read a cable
VZCZCXRO9005
PP RUEHCN
DE RUEHROV #0057/01 0901549
ZNY CCCCC ZZH
P 311549Z MAR 06
FM AMEMBASSY VATICAN
TO RUEHC/SECSTATE WASHDC PRIORITY 0291
INFO RUEHOO/CHINA POSTS COLLECTIVE
RUEHROV/AMEMBASSY VATICAN 0319
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 VATICAN 000057 

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E.O. 12958: DECL: 3/31/2016
TAGS: PREL SOCI KIRF VT CH
SUBJECT: HOLY SEE'S CHINA NEGOTIATOR "HOPEFUL BUT WITHOUT ILLUSIONS"

REF: (A) BEIJING 5538 (EXDIS),(B) VATICAN 0038, (C) VATICAN 0052, (D) VATICAN

0031, (E) VATICAN 0048

VATICAN 00000057 001.2 OF 002


CLASSIFIED BY: Christopher Sandrolini, Deputy Chief of Mission,
EXEC, State.
REASON: 1.4 (d)
C O N F I D E N T I A L SECTION 01 OF 02 VATICAN 000057

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SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 3/31/2016
TAGS: PREL SOCI KIRF VT CH
SUBJECT: HOLY SEE'S CHINA NEGOTIATOR "HOPEFUL BUT WITHOUT ILLUSIONS"

REF: (A) BEIJING 5538 (EXDIS),(B) VATICAN 0038, (C) VATICAN 0052, (D) VATICAN

0031, (E) VATICAN 0048

VATICAN 00000057 001.2 OF 002


CLASSIFIED BY: Christopher Sandrolini, Deputy Chief of Mission,
EXEC, State.
REASON: 1.4 (d)

1. (C) Summary. The Holy See's principal China negotiator,
Archbishop Celli, described the situation of the Catholic Church
in China as complex, with continuing subtle layers of control in
key areas. With regard to the bilateral relationship between
China and the Holy See, the Vatican remains hopeful but
realistic. Celli does not expect to travel to China any time
soon. He had praise for USG pressure on China on religious
freedom issues and agreed that it has helped. End summary.


2. (C) Ambassador Rooney, accompanied by DCM and Special
Assistant, called on Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli on March 30.
Now the Secretary of the Administration of the Patrimony of the
Holy See (an investment fund),Celli was at one time the
Undersecretary for Relations with States in the Secretariat of
State (i.e., deputy foreign minister). The archbishop, who
speaks excellent English, remains the Holy See's point man for
negotiations with Vietnam and China. He has played this role
for a long time (17 years for Vietnam, 24 years for China); it
is discreet but publicly known.

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Control over Church is complex
--------------


3. (C) Celli described China as a place he cares deeply about
but added that it is not an easy subject. He was at pains to
express the subtlety and complexity of the situation facing the
Church in China, which is difficult. The word "control", said
Celli, doesn't fully express the reality. The Church can act
only with the approval of government, i.e. what is not
explicitly permitted is prohibited. He described the government
as omnipresent. The government is too image-conscious to close
churches or overtly interfere, but Church activities are tightly
restricted. China also wants influence over Catholic schools,
known as the best in the country, as it is embarrassing for the
government to have no role in administering them.



4. (C) Religious freedom, linked to human rights, is a critical
focus for the Church. Recalling his first visit to China in
1982 -- when it was forbidden to mention the Pope in sermons or
print his photograph -- Celli acknowledged that religious
freedom there has improved. There are over 4000 churches, 23
seminaries (official, not underground),and an open liturgy, but
that does not constitute full religious freedom. Celli
described the Patriotic Association as the "long arm" of the
government, and said the Vatican remains "full of hope but
without illusions".


5. (C) Celli outlined the well-known process of the
appointment of bishops; it looks democratic, in that they are
"elected", but this masks an elaborate background of control.
The Holy See and the GOC are made aware by various means of
candidates acceptable to each other, but without any direct
consultation; the Holy See then appoints the right candidates
and Beijing accepts them. This has happened three times
recently, noted Celli, but in the coming years another 40
appointments will need to be made; he wondered whether the
present informal and cumbersome arrangement would prove adequate
for this volume of appointments. The first test will come soon,
as it is now necessary to appoint an aide to Cardinal Zen.

--------------
Comments on Cardinal Zen
--------------


6. (C) Celli observed that Beijing is not happy with Cardinal
Zen, whom he described as "very nice, clever, perceptive, but
maybe too outspoken" - being in this sense un-Chinese. China
is trying to exert a sophisticated control over democracy. Zen
understands this, and the Church is prepared to be patient.
However, he hopes it will be possible to articulate a definite
time frame - say, 10 or 12 years - as a goal, and, as the
ambassador said, as a "roadmap" toward true and unfettered
religious freedom. According to Celli, China blames Zen for two
big recent demonstrations (presumably those at the time of the
WTO ministerial last December) of half a million and one million
people; Celli observed that with only 300,000 Catholics in Hong
Kong, it's absurd to think a Cardinal could organize something
on that scale. China, he said, knows that most of those in the
crowd were really there for pro-democracy reasons, but finds it
more convenient to treat the matter as a provocation by Zen.

--------------
USG Actions
--------------


7. (C) The ambassador asked about actions of President Bush
during his recent visit to China. Celli said they were "in a
sense" positive because he spoke clearly, but China doesn't like
to be treated that way; Beijing took notice but wasn't pleased
with what it considers foreign interference. Celli said the
Holy See appreciates the U.S. expression of interest on

VATICAN 00000057 002.2 OF 002


religious freedom in China. By contrast, "some governments
don't care". Note: Celli was slightly less positive than other
recent Embassy interlocutors, including a priest from the
Patriotic Church, who praised the President's stand more
forcefully (reftels). End note.


8. (C) The ambassador noted our impression that China is
responding to the points made by the President on religious
freedom. Celli commented that judging the number or exact
status of priests in detention is difficult. Often they are
given a form of house arrest, detained for 2-4 weeks in remote
hotels, and made to listen to political arguments, but strictly
speaking are not abused. He also cited the government practice
of calling some bishops in for "consultations", conceding that
"not all bishops respond in the same way". Celli averred that
Beijing knows exactly who the underground priests and bishops
are, but leaves most of them alone, singling out only a few; he
seemed to imply that the ones singled out are the most
outspoken. On the other hand, a few months ago one underground
bishop was recognized officially, and he was one of the tougher
ones. (Beijing wanted him to make a certain statement, the
Vatican quietly approved the statement, and all came out well.)
So, repeated Celli, the situation is subtle.

--------------
Pope to China? Not likely
--------------


9. (C) Celli scoffed at the possibility of the pope being
invited to China in the next few years, calling it "impossible
at this time". The Church cannot ask for full religious freedom
yet, and in any case the government is not in a position to
grant it. Using a favorite metaphor, Celli said the Church is
like a bird in a cage -- but cages come in different sizes, and
he is hoping for a series of larger and larger cages.


10. (C) Responding to the ambassador's direct question, Celli
said he would be going to China again, but probably not soon.
(He was to travel to China last November, but two days before
the trip China asked to postpone it.) He clarified his own role
by saying that while others (e.g. Cardinal McCarrick) can
certainly visit China unofficially, no one but Celli himself
would be in a position to negotiate, as the Holy See prefers
continuity and this matter will remain in the hands of the
Secretariat of State (to whom Celli reports in his role as

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negotiator). Celli suggested that China's recent overtures to
Cardinal McCarrick might owe more to his nationality than his
Vatican affiliation - i.e., with Hu's Washington visit coming
up, it would be politic to be nice to American visitors.


11. (C) Celli shared some of his experience in dealing with
communist states. When he first visited Vietnam, he was treated
in his first session to a 90-minute lecture in Vietnamese on the
regime's accomplishments (followed by another 90 minutes of
translation). The second session focused on the Holy See's
deficiencies - "like a liturgy", joked Celli. He contrasted the
clear but flexible guidance given him by the Pope with the rigid
negotiating style of the Chinese - though sometimes there is a
bit of free talk on the margins, e.g. in cab rides.


12. (C) Celli said he'd told Archbishop Lajolo (the Holy See's
foreign minister equivalent) that what wouldn't be accomplished
in 10 years by China could be accomplished in one week, should
the fundamental political decision ever be made; but it's
impossible to predict when that might come. He suggested it
would require a changing of the old guard, such as the Head of
Religious Affairs in the Chinese foreign ministry, who is
"always negative". It is almost a generational issue of the old
Maoists retiring and ceding power to the young, in his opinion.


13. (C) Comment: Celli, sharp as a razor, clearly understood
why we wanted to see him - though he was careful to remind us
that we should normally remain within regular Secretariat of
State channels. Despite the ambassador's direct questions, if
he had any inkling of an imminent Chinese opening toward the
Holy See (ref a),he did not let on. He did not see any likely
breakthrough, whether related to the 2008 Olympics or anything
else. Rather, he conveyed a sense of a Beijing regime that,
while theoretically able to make the necessary political
decision to normalize with the Holy See, in fact finds itself
constrained to move very cautiously. Celli was by no means
pessimistic, but instead made clear that both sides are prepared
for a very gradual process of rapprochement. In this light, we
are inclined to see several recent public remarks about the
"ripeness" of the relationship, or a possible papal visit - made
by the pope, Lajolo,and Celli himself, though anonymously --
more as stalking horses than as harbingers of impending movement.
ROONEY