FRANCE; DHS SECRETARY CHERTOFF'S JAN. 24

C O N F I D E N T I A L PARIS 000823

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

STATE FOR EUR/WE-BALL, EB/TRA-MATTINGLY, S/CT-KONTOS, CA
DHS OPS CENTER FOR SEQUEIRA

E.O. 12958: DECL: 02/07/2016
TAGS: PTER FR EAIR KFLU CVIS
SUBJECT: FRANCE; DHS SECRETARY CHERTOFF'S JAN. 24
DISCUSSIONS ON C/T, AVIAN FLU, BIOMETRIC PASSPORTS


Classified By: AMBASSADOR CRAIG STAPLETON FOR REASONS 1.4 (A) AND (D)

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SUMMARY
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1. (SBU) Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff
held meetings in Paris January 24 to discuss preparations for
a potential avian flu pandemic, Franco-American cooperation
on C/T and aviation security, and specific issues related to
biometric passports and the Container Security Initiative
(CSI). He met with an interministerial delegation of French
officials at the General Secretariat for National Defense
(SGDN),and held a separate meeting with the Director of
France,s FBI-equivalent Direction de la Surveillance du
Territoire (DST). He engaged leading French opinion-makers
in a discussion of U.S. homeland security policy over lunch,
and discussed both his trip and concerns about France,s
failure to produce biometric passports with the press. A
meeting with Interior Minister Nicholas Sarkozy will be
reported septel.

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SGDN
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2. (SBU) Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff
met with Francis Delon, Director General of the Prime
Minister,s office for defense policy coordination (SGDN) in
Paris January 24. Delon was accompanied by Vice-Admiral
Scott de Martinville (SGDN); Didier Houssin, Interministerial
Delegate for Avian Flu; Michel Wachenheim, Director General
of Civil Aviation; Frederic Mondoloni, Deputy Diplomatic
Advisor, Prime Minister,s Office; David Martinon,
Diplomatic Advisor, MOI; Pierre Thenard, Deputy-Director for
Security, MFA; Prefect Bernard Boube, SGDN; Eric Lebedel,
SGDN; General Bernard Salvignol, SGDN; Captain Jean-Louis
Vichot, SGDN; Benedicte Suzan, SGDN; and Jean-Philippe
Grelot, SGDN. Secretary Chertoff was accompanied by
Ambassador Craig Stapleton; Deputy Chief of Mission Karl
Hofmann; DHS A/S for Public Affairs Brian Besancenay; DHS
Deputy Chief of Staff Chad Beaudreux; DHS Office of
International Affairs Director for European and Multilateral
Affairs Dennis Sequeira; Embassy Paris DOJ Representative
Kenneth Harris; Embassy Paris DHS Representative Deirdre
Mahon; Embassy Paris TSA Representative Nouri Larbi; Poloff
Peter Kujawinski; and Econoff (notetaker).

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SGDN: AVIAN FLU
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3. (SBU) SG Delon began by explaining SGDN,s role in
coordination and planning for avian flu. Primary
responsibility lay with Interministerial Delegate Didier
Houssin. Houssin outlined the main elements of France,s
approach, especially its plan to stockpile enough drugs and
masks to treat virtually all of France,s 60 million people:
they expected to have 40 million treatments by 2007,
including 33 million anti-virals. The plan called also
called for stockpiling 40 million doses of vaccine, and 50
million professional face-masks alongside tens of millions of
surgical masks. Delon noted that a key uncertainty was the
eventual availability of an avian flu vaccine. France wanted
to invite the US to attend a national exercise to be held in
France in co-operation with the UN and WHO March 16.
Secretary Chertoff said the U.S. would be interested in

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sending an observer.


4. (SBU) Secretary Chertoff noted the similarity of the
U.S. approach: DHS was involved because of the significant
non-medical dimensions to an avian flu pandemic, including
maintenance of power supplies, food and water supplies, and
border control. The latter would need to be coordinated
internationally. Secretary Chertoff said key questions were
how to prioritize limited drug supplies, how to do border
screening, how to inform the public and businesses, and how
to provide significant medical surge capacity.


5. (SBU) Delon said France was grappling with many of the
same issues. They would have to coordinate border closings
internationally, particularly with other EU countries, and
were looking at providing treatment at home to ease the
strain on medical facilities. Didier Hossein noted two key
issues for French planners: whether to close schools, and

what to do about public transportation. Much would depend on
the lethality of a virus. They believed they would have to
close schools. Secretary Chertoff noted that the USG did not
control schools as in France, and that it would be easier for
it to order closure than to ensure that they stayed open.
Parents and local school boards would ultimately decide make
this decision. We were looking at options for local closures,
if outbreaks were limited. The U.S. had not yet reached a
conclusion on public transportation. Hurricane Katrina had
shown however, that power and petrol supplies were crucial to
U.S. infrastructure, and we would have to make decision about
shutting down infrastructure very cautiously. The U.S. would
share its plan with France once it was finalized.


6. (SBU) Francis Delon said that the GOF had made a decision
in June to make planning for a potential avian flu outbreak
public. He said that if an outbreak occurred, government
advice needed to be believed to be effective. It was
important to establish public confidence in it now.
Secretary Chertoff said he totally agreed, and A/S Besancenay

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noted the importance of international coordination of
communication strategies: in the internet age, different
messages coming from opposite sides of the Atlantic could
easily create doubts about their validity. Francis Delon
concluded that there was a basic consensus on strategy, and
Secretary Chertoff urged that both sides keep in touch as

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planning for avian flu progressed.

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SGDN: FRANCE,S C/T WHITE PAPER
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7. (C) Delon raised France,s "white paper" on terrorism,
drafting of which the SGDN is spearheading. The white paper,
said Delon, will most likely be finalized and made public in
February. It seeks to define the terrorist threat, to
evaluate the utility of present counterterrorist strategies,
and to propose medium to long-term strategies. The main
threat, said Delon, is al Qaida and extremists from the
Muslim world: "radical Islamist terrorism." It is expected
to be long-term, to last at least for a generation. The
extremists, ideology is archaic, said Delon, although their
means to spread their ideology are very modern. They hate
the system of globalization but nonetheless use it to fight.
These extremists are not combatants and France is not at war,
said Delon. The GOF wants to avoid legitimizing their cause
by equating it with other, more conventional wars.


8. (C) In order to fight this strategic threat, the white
paper will focus on the importance of better intelligence,
strengthening the government,s capacity to protect
infrastructure, strengthening crisis planning, and eliciting
the cooperation and confidence of the public. The white
paper is meant to be public, said Delon, in order to inform
the public of the threat to French society. Secretary
Chertoff agreed with the importance of these broad themes.
He stressed that the U.S. was particularly concerned about
terrorists procuring WMD. Any WMD attack would have a
"transformative impact" on a society and its economy, said
Chertoff. It was orders of magnitude higher than terrorist
attacks using convention weapons.


9. (C) At the end of his presentation on the white paper,
Delon noted that France had just approved new legislation to
fight terrorism. This legislation would increase video
surveillance in public places and in public transport; would
give intelligence agencies increased access to government
databases; and would toughen the sanctions involved in
terrorism-related cases. Delon added that Iraq was a grave
matter of concern to France, given that a number of French
citizens had already been caught trying to reach Iraq to
fight jihad. France feared that Iraq resembled previous
conflicts in the Balkans, Chechnya and Afghanistan in their
attraction and formation of would-be militants.


10. (C) Delon also mentioned two French proposals for
cooperation on C/T related issues. One would have Prefect
Boube lead an interministerial French delegation to the U.S.
in March or April to discuss strategies and means of
classifying NRBC threats to better focus collaboration
between French and American laboratories developing
technologies for detecting WMD. Secretary Chertoff said the
U.S would welcome collaboration on both technological and
operational issues in this area. Delon also mentioned the
utility of developing contacts in the area of

cybercriminality. SGDN monitored the internet 24 hours a day
for potential attacks, and would welcome collaboration with a
U.S. counterpart. Secretary Chertoff said DHS was
responsible for cybersecurity, DOJ for cybercriminality, and
that he would be happy to help build a relationship with
France in this area. Dennis Sequiera would be the DHS
contact point.

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SGDN: AVIATION SECURITY
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11. (C) Secretary Chertoff began by emphasizing the
importance of the No-Fly and Selectee system for U.S.
aviation security, and described plans to move to toward a
system of namechecks on a rolling basis before departure,
which would help avoid the problem of mistaken boarding of
passengers on our watchlists. More sharing of data would
also lead to fewer mistakes, and would allow us to better
understand how each other,s systems worked. The Secretary
noted with interest the new C/T legislation in France, which
he believed gave the government the authority to collect PNR
data on travelers. The U.S. would be pleased to share its
experience in this area with the GOF.


12. (C) Delon noted that on PNR developing a system would
take time: they were starting from scratch, and would no
doubt have a selective approach at first. They had no plans
to establish a French No-Fly list. He said that France would
continue to try to cooperate with the U.S., but that this was
not an easy matter. They had long had concerns about the
legality of No-Fly screening under French data privacy law,
and had now concluded that they would have to submit this to
the French Data Privacy Authority (CNIL) for approval. They
were still preparing their case, and wanted to avoid a
negative decision, which would be a "disaster." They did not
feel they were in a position to move forward with Selectee EA
implementation pending these consultations. The Secretary
indicated that he understood these concerns, and was hoping
for progress on the Selectee EA as soon as they were able.


13. (C) Delon noted that an additional complication came
from the upcoming European Court of Justice decision which
could potentially overturn the U.S./EU agreement on PNR data
protection, on the grounds that the commission lacked
competence to conclude such an agreement. They would be
planning for this in the coming weeks. Perhaps another basis
could be found for an EU-wide agreement; he did not expect a
"catastrophe" in the event of a negative decision. Secretary
Chertoff concurred that we would need to find a way to make
the system work in the event of such a decision.


14. (SBU) In response to enquiries about possible changes in
the U.S. No-Fly system, Secretary Chertoff emphasized that
the No-Fly system would remain as a key element of U.S.
aviation security. He noted a number of possible
improvements. The U.S. was seeking to develop a trusted
traveler system, to put additional information into watchlist
records to reduce the numbers of false positives, and to
check names on a rolling basis before planes took off. The
latter idea drew particular interest from the French, who
noted that Air France was interested in participating in the
TSA Quick Query pilot test planned for next summer. Francis

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Delon concluded by praising the good working relationships
SGDN and the Embassy and DGAC and TSA had established on
aviation security.

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SGDN: CSI AND VWPP
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15. (SBU) In closing, Secretary Chertoff brought two
specific issues to the attention of the French. He noted the
importance of improving supply chain security, and the
success we had experienced with the Container Security
Initiative, which was now operating in a number of countries,
including France. We hoped to increase inspection rates.
One remaining problem was the unresolved issue of A&T status
for CSI inspectors stationed in French ports. Other European
partners had resolved this issue, and the Secretary hoped
that the French MFA would do so soon as well.


16. (SBU) Secretary Chertoff also mentioned France,s
non-compliance with U.S. standards for biometric passports.
He hoped the French would be able to produce biometric


passports soon; this would eliminate the considerable
problems caused by the increased French need for visas. He
also noted U.S. concern over lost and stolen passports in
France. We needed to be able to identify and track these,
and this would be a consideration in the February review of
France,s eligibility for the VWP. Delon noted France,s
concern about these issues as well: one of the benefits of
the new passports would be to provide additional security
against fraudulent use. David Martinon of MOI noted that
they did not expect that these would be available before May,
and that the U.S. Embassy received reports on lost and stolen
passports from the GOF daily. Michel Wachenheim mentioned
flight crew visas, and wondered whether alternative ways of
collecting fingerprint scans without a personal appearance
might be considered. Secretary Chertoff indicated he was
open to exploring new approaches to information collection
for visa processing.

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LUNCH WITH FRENCH OPINION-MAKERS
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17. (SBU) The Ambassador hosted a luncheon January 24 for
the Secretary with a number of key academics and think tank
directors. Participants included Guillaume Parmentier of the
French Institute for International Relations (IFRI),Nicole
Bacharan of the Sciences Politiques faculty, Jean-Luc Marret
of the Foundation for Strategic Research (FRS),Pascal
Drouhaud of the ruling UMP political party, and National
Assembly Deputy Alain Marsaud.


18. (SBU) The wide-ranging discussion focused on the war on
terror and counter-terrorism cooperation. Deputy Marsaud
described the French system as "more integrated" than the
U.S., arguing that France in the 1960 s broke down the
"firewall" between intelligence activity and the justice
system, with the result that French prosecutors have
considerably more leeway to work with France,s intelligence
agencies. Secretary Chertoff and the French participants
agreed that prisons are of particular concern in the
recruitment and formation of extremists sympathetic to
terrorist organizations, and a potential breeding ground for
suicide bombers.


19. (SBU) On data privacy concerns, Parmentier argued that
Americans are more accepting of privacy loss than Europeans.
Secretary Chertoff noted that Europe seems particularly

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concerned re data bases, but Europeans are much more
accepting than are Americans of the national ID card concept.
A number of French participants (IFRI, FRS, UMP) emphasized
that, while the French may be understanding of the difficult
task of fighting terrorists (noting France's Algerian
history),the French public wants to see a more contrite U.S.
when mistakes in fact are made. Bacharan cited widespread
concern among Europeans that the U.S. is not living up to its
own strong rule of law principles, concerns which she claimed
were undermining European support for U.S. counter-terrorism
efforts.

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OTHER MEETINGS
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20. (SBU) Secretary Chertoff also met with Pierre de Bousquet
de Florian, Director of France,s DST and several of his
close collaborators on C/T issues. Embassy will provide
additional details of the meeting via separate channels.
Chertoff met with U.S and French journalists at a press
roundtable, and fielded questions on current political events
as well as U.S counterterrorism policy and the issue of
France,s inability to comply with U.S. requirements for
biometric passports. He also met with Minister of the
Interior Nicholas Sarkozy February 25. Embassy will report
on this meeting septel.

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COMMENT
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21. (SBU) Secretary Chertoff's meetings in Paris bolstered
our ongoing dialogue with the GOF on C/T cooperation and
emphasized our shared commitment to the fight against
terrorism and extremist ideologies, while promoting
cooperation on emerging issues such as avian flu. At the
same time, the Secretary successfully delivered a message

that on aviation and maritime security, issues remain which
the GOF must work to resolve. Both in bilateral meetings and
with the press the Secretary highlighted the need for the GOF
to quickly find a way to produce biometric passports in order
to allow French travelers to avoid the delay and expense of
getting a visa.


22. (SBU) This cable was cleared with Secretary Chertoff,s
party.
Please visit Paris' Classified Website at:
http://www.state.sgov.gov/p/eur/paris/index.c fm

Stapleton