USCC MEETING WITH CARDINAL ZEN

C O N F I D E N T I A L HONG KONG 003066

SIPDIS

NOFORN
SIPDIS

DEPARTMENT FOR EAP AND EAP/CM
NSC FOR DENNIS WILDER















E.O. 12958: DECL: 07/30/2031
TAGS: PGOV PREL PINR PHUM CH HK
SUBJECT: USCC MEETING WITH CARDINAL ZEN

CLASSIFIED BY: E/P ACTING SECTION CHIEF JEFF ZAISER; REASONS 1.4 (B, D)


1. (C) SUMMARY: IN A JUNE 25 MEETING WITH MEMBERS OF THE
U.S.-CHINA ECONOMIC AND SECURITY REVIEW COMMISSION (USCC),
CARDINAL JOSEPH ZEN SAID THE TWO RECENT PRC ORDINATIONS OF
BISHOPS WITHOUT VATICAN APPROVAL HAD CONSTITUTED A RETURN TO
THE PRACTICE OF FIFTY YEARS AGO, ALTHOUGH HE BELIEVED THE
IMPETUS FOR THE ORDINATIONS CAME FROM THE RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS
BUREAU (RAB) RATHER THAN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS. ZEN
SAID THAT THE SITUATION OF THE CATHOLIC "UNDERGROUND"
(NON-OFFICIAL) CHURCHES IN THE MAINLAND WAS "A LITTLE BETTER"
AND THE YOUNGER PRIESTS TENDED TO BE "LESS OBEDIENT." HE WAS
PESSIMISTIC ABOUT PROSPECTS FOR NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS
BETWEEN THE MAINLAND AND THE VATICAN. IN HONG KONG, ZEN SAID
THE PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES WERE FRUSTRATED AT THE COMPLETE
LACK OF PROGRESS TOWARD UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE, BUT SAID THERE
HAD BEEN "NO SPLIT IN STRATEGY" AMONG THE VARIOUS
PRO-DEMOCRACY POLITICAL PARTIES. HE BELIEVED CHIEF EXECUTIVE
DONALD TSANG REMAINED VERY POPULAR BECAUSE THE HONG KONG
PEOPLE VIEWED HIM AS COMPETENT, ALTHOUGH HE OBSERVED THAT "A
GOOD CATHOLIC WAS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD CHIEF EXECUTIVE."
END SUMMARY.


2. (C) ON JUNE 25, THE VISITING DELEGATION FROM THE
U.S.-CHINA ECONOMIC AND SECURITY REVIEW COMMISSION (USCC)
DISCUSSED RELIGIOUS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES IN THE MAINLAND
AND HONG KONG WITH CARDINAL JOSEPH ZEN, THE 74-YEAR OLD
LEADER OF THE HONG KONG CATHOLIC DIOCESE. THE USCC
DELEGATION INCLUDED VICE CHAIRMAN CAROLYN BARTHOLOMEW;
COMMISSIONERS PATRICK MULLOY, KERRI HOUSTON, AND DANIEL
BLUMENTHAL; EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR T. SCOTT BUNTON; AND SENIOR
RESEARCH ANALYST FOR ECONOMICS AND TRADE PAUL MAGNUSSON.

ELEVATION TO CARDINAL
--------------


3. (C) TOLD THAT POPE BENEDICT HAD COMMENTED THAT THE CHINESE
AMBASSADOR TO ROME WAS "FURIOUS" WHEN THE APPOINTMENT OF ZEN
AS CARDINAL WAS ANNOUNCED IN FEBRUARY, ZEN NODDED, ADDING
THAT THE PRC GOVERNMENT HAD ORDERED CHINA'S CATHOLIC PRIESTS
NOT TO SEND HIM ANY CONGRATULATORY MESSAGES. WHEN THE
COMMISSIONERS DESCRIBED THE LIMITATIONS PLACED ON THEIR VISIT
TO THE PRC, AS WELL AS BEIJING'S REQUEST THAT THEY NOT MEET
WITH PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES IN HONG KONG, ZEN AGAIN NODDED,
OBSERVING THAT THEY HAD DONE THE SAME WITH THE PREVIOUS VISIT
OF THE U.S. COMMISSION ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. HE ALSO NOTED
THAT THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT "DID NOT TALK TO HIM, DID NOT
KNOW HOW TO TALK TO HIM, AND DID NOT DARE TO TALK TO HIM."

PRC BISHOPS
--------------


4. (C) ZEN SAID THAT THE TWO RECENT PRC ORDINATIONS OF
BISHOPS WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE VATICAN HAD CONSTITUTED A
RETURN TO THE PRACTICE OF FIFTY YEARS AGO AND CONTRAVENED THE
EVOLUTION OF RELATIONS SINCE THAT TIME. HE BELIEVED THE
IMPETUS FOR THE ORDINATIONS CAME FROM THE RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS
BUREAU (RAB) RATHER THAN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS, WHOM HE
BELIEVED WERE NOT "ACTIVELY" BEHIND THE DECISION. ZEN
OBSERVED THAT VICE CHAIRMAN LIU BAINIAN OF THE RAB, WHOM HE
SAID WAS BEHIND THE APPOINTMENT OF THE TWO, WAS A LAYMAN YET
HAD HIGHER RANKING THAN ALL OF THE MAINLAND BISHOPS.
FURTHERMORE, HE CLAIMED THAT THE RAB HAD PROMULGATED A RUMOR
THAT ZEN HAD BEEN APPOINTED BY THE POPE WITHOUT THE
ACCEPTANCE OF BEIJING, WHICH HE SAID WAS NOT TRUE. THE RAB,
HOWEVER, HAD NOT ANTICIPATED THE STRENGTH OF THE VATICANS
REACTION TO THE BISHOP ORDINATIONS. NOW, HOWEVER, THOSE TWO
BISHOPS HAD WRITTEN TO THE POPE AND ZEN SEEMED HOPEFUL THAT A
WAY COULD BE FOUND TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEM. HE SAID MORE THAN
85 PERCENT OF PRC BISHOPS WERE RECOGNIZED BY THE VATICAN,
MOST HAD BEEN APPROVED BY THE POPE PRIOR TO THEIR ORDINATION,
AND THE OFFICIAL CHURCHES IN THE PRC WERE GETTING "SOME GOOD
BISHOPS AND PRIESTS." BISHOPS WHO WERE NOT APPROVED BY THE
POPE WERE NOT ACCEPTED BY THE PEOPLE OR BY CATHOLIC PRIESTS.

PRC CHURCHES
--------------


5. (C) ZEN SAID THERE WERE NO NEW DEVELOPMENTS CONCERNING THE
CATHOLIC "UNDERGROUND" (NON-OFFICIAL) CHURCHES IN THE
MAINLAND. HE SAID "WE DON'T NEED TO BE TOO WORRIED" ABOUT
THEM, BECAUSE THEIR SITUATION WAS "A LITTLE BETTER" AND THEIR
PRIESTS WERE "USED TO GOING TO PRISON," WHILE THE PRISONS NOW
WERE MOSTLY GUESTHOUSES. OVERALL, HE ESTIMATED THERE WERE
ABOUT TEN MILLION CATHOLICS IN THE MAINLAND, TWICE THE
OFFICIAL ESTIMATE. ZEN SAID IT WAS EASY FOR THE GOVERNMENT
TO CONTROL THE CHURCH, ESPECIALLY THE OLDER PRIESTS; THE

YOUNGER ONES, HOWEVER, WERE "LESS OBEDIENT." MANY OF THE
PRIESTS HAD RECEIVED TRAINING OVERSEAS, INCLUDING ABOUT FIFTY
IN THE U.S. AND MANY MORE IN GERMANY, BELGIUM, AND FRANCE;
CURRENTLY THERE WERE MORE THAN 160 PRC PRIESTS, SEMINARIANS,
AND SISTERS AT THE VATICAN.


6. (C) ZEN SAID HE "TRIED TO BE OPTIMISTIC" ABOUT PROSPECTS
FOR NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS BETWEEN THE MAINLAND AND THE
VATICAN, BUT IN FACT HE WAS PESSIMISTIC. WITHOUT RELIGIOUS
FREEDOM IN THE MAINLAND, THE CHURCH WAS UNABLE TO CARE FOR
CATHOLICS IN THE PRC. BY CONTRAST, ZEN SAID THAT IN TAIWAN,
WHICH MAINTAINED OFFICIAL RELATIONS WITH THE VATICAN, THERE
WAS NO PROBLEM WITH RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. ON THE MAINLAND, THE
GOVERNMENT CURRENTLY WAS IN "FULL CONTROL" AND IT WAS
"DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE HOW THEY COULD RELINQUISH POWER." HE
SAID THERE WAS MUCH HARASSMENT OF THE CHURCH IN THE MAINLAND.
ALSO, WHILE IN THEORY THE CHURCH CONTROLLED ITS OWN
PROPERTY, IN PRACTICE THERE WERE PROBLEMS: IN XIAN, FOR
EXAMPLE, THE CHURCH HAD BEEN FORCED TO BUY BACK ITS OWN
PROPERTY THAT THE GOVERNMENT PREVIOUSLY HAD SEIZED.

POLITICAL REFORM IN THE PRC
--------------


7. (C) ASKED ABOUT THE LONG TERM PROSPECTS FOR SIGNIFICANT
REFORM IN CHINA, ZEN SAID HE HOPED IT WOULD START WITH
DEMOCRATIZATION WITHIN THE COMMUNIST PARTY. HE SAID THERE
WERE STILL SUPPORTERS OF FORMER PRESIDENT JIANG ZEMIN IN THE
NPC, INCLUDING CPPCC CHAIRMAN JIA QINGLIN. ASKED IF
PRESIDENT HU JINTAO WAS MORE CONSERVATIVE THAN JIANG, ZEN
SAID HU, WHO HAD APPROVED ZENS MOST RECENT TRAVEL TO
SHANGHAI, WAS "DIFFERENT" FROM JIANG. THE FACT THAT THE PRC
HAD BEEN ABLE TO CONTINUE POSTING HIGH ECONOMIC GROWTH RATES
WAS A "MYSTERY" TO HIM, AND HE BELIEVED IT WAS "VERY
DANGEROUS" TO CONTINUE WITH ECONOMIC REFORM WITHOUT POLITICAL
REFORM, AS THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE EVER-INCREASING LEVELS OF
CORRUPTION. CITING DENG XIAOPING'S DECLARATION THAT CHINA
COULD ALLOW "SOME TO GET RICH BEFORE OTHERS," HE ASKED: "BUT
WHO? PARTY MEMBERS?" ZEN BELIEVED THAT WESTERN COUNTRIES,
IF UNITED, COULD "MAKE A DIFFERENCE" IN THE PRC. HE ALSO
OPINED THAT THE "FAILURE OF IDEOLOGY IN CHINA WOULD NOT
NECESSARILY LEAD TO RELIGION."

HONG KONG DEMOCRATIZATION
--------------


8. (C) ZEN SAID THE PRO-DEMOCRACY ADVOCATES IN HONG KONG
CURRENTLY WERE FRUSTRATED AT THE COMPLETE LACK OF PROGRESS
TOWARD UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE. HE SAID THAT "THE ORDERS COME
FROM BEIJING." ALTHOUGH ALLOWED BY THE BASIC LAW, IN 2004
THE NPC HAD EXCLUDED THE POSSIBILITY OF UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE
FOR THE 2007 AND 2008 ELECTIONS. THE CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM
PACKAGE PROPOSED BY THE HONG KONG GOVERNMENT AND BLOCKED BY
THE LEGCO DEMOCRATS IN DECEMBER 2005 HAD "IN NO WAY"
REPRESENTED PROGRESS TOWARD UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE. SINCE THEN,
ZEN SAID THERE HAD BEEN "NO SPLIT IN STRATEGY" AMONG THE
VARIOUS PRO-DEMOCRACY POLITICAL PARTIES. MORE RECENTLY, ZEN
SAID THE ANNUAL JUNE 4 CANDLELIGHT VIGIL HAD BEEN RELATIVELY
SMALL (44,000 PARTICIPANTS, ACCORDING TO THE ORGANIZERS) BUT
IT WAS IMPORTANT. NEVERTHELESS, WITH A PRO-GOVERNMENT
MAJORITY IN THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL (LEGCO),THE GOVERNMENT
COULD ENACT HARMFUL LEGISLATION; FOR EXAMPLE, ZEN SAID THAT
FROM THE YEAR 2010 THE CHURCH WOULD LOSE CONTROL OF THE
CATHOLIC SCHOOLS IN HONG KONG. (NOTE: ZEN WAS REFERRING TO
THE EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL ENACTED IN JULY 2004, WHICH
REQUIRES PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS TO ESTABLISH SCHOOL
MANAGEMENT COMMITTEES. END NOTE.) HE ALSO MENTIONED THE
"PUBLIC ORDER LAWS" THAT HAD BEEN ABOLISHED BEFORE HONG
KONGS 1997 REVERSION BUT NOW HAD BEEN REVIVED, REQUIRING
ANYONE PLANNING A PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION TO OBTAIN A PERMIT.
HE ALSO BELIEVED CHANGES IN OWNERSHIP OF SOME MEDIA OUTLETS
ARE LEADING TO SOME DETERIORATION IN FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.


9. (C) ACKNOWLEDGING THAT CHIEF EXECUTIVE DONALD TSANG WAS
VERY POPULAR, ZEN SAID THIS WAS BECAUSE THE HONG KONG PEOPLE
VIEWED HIM AS COMPETENT. HE WRYLY OBSERVED THAT "A GOOD
CATHOLIC WAS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD CHIEF EXECUTIVE." HE
SAID TSANG "GETS HIS ORDERS FROM BEIJING;" HOWEVER, HE COULD
INFLUENCE THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT LEADERS, BUT DOES NOT.
BEIJING, HE SAID, WAS "UNNECESSARILY AFRAID," AND TSANG COULD
TELL THEM THERE WAS NO NEED TO BE.


10. (C) CARDINAL ZEN SAID HE HAS VISITED THE U.S. THREE
TIMES, BUT HAS NOT HELD MEETINGS WITH USG OFFICIALS. WERE HE
TO DO SO, HE BELIEVED SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY THERE WERE
"FOREIGN POWERS" BEHIND HIM.

11. (SBU) THE USCC DELEGATION HAS CLEARED THIS CABLE.
MULLINS