STAFFDEL GROVE DISCUSSES BILATERAL RELATIONS,

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 04 HANOI 000461

SIPDIS

SIPDIS
SENSITIVE

STATE FOR H, G/TIP, INL/AAE, EAP/MLS, EAP/RSP

E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: OTRA PREL PHUM KIRF SNAR KWMN KCRM OMIG VM
CH, CA, BU
SUBJECT: STAFFDEL GROVE DISCUSSES BILATERAL RELATIONS,
CAMBODIA AND BURMA WITH MFA

HANOI 00000461 001.2 OF 004



1. (SBU) Summary: Senior MFA officials cautioned visiting
Senate Appropriations Committee Majority Clerk Paul Grove
that continued USG pressure on Burma and Cambodia will only
push those countries closer to China, and will not succeed
in convincing them to become more responsible international
actors. Vietnam is extremely appreciative of USG assistance
in combating HIV/AIDS and Avian Influenza, and believes that
the United States has an important role to play in the
region. Bilateral relations between the United States and
Vietnam are going well, but Vietnam's WTO entry is still
under negotiation and human rights/religious freedom will
remain a contentious issue. End Summary.

MFA AMERICAS DESK
--------------


2. (SBU) Senate Appropriations Committee Clerk Paul Grove
met February 20 with MFA Americas Department Deputy Director
General Nguyen Ba Hung. Grove had been scheduled to meet
with DG and Assistant Minister Nguyen Duc Hung, but Hung
canceled at the last minute due to "urgent family business."
(Note: AFM Hung was also unable to attend the U.S.-Vietnam
Human Rights Dialogue and missed a reception at the
Ambassador's residence that evening. End Note.) Ba Hung
noted that the U.S.-Vietnam Human Rights Dialogue (septel)
was ongoing in the next room; Grove responded that the
issues of human rights and religious freedom are of great
importance to both the Executive and Legislative branches in
the United States.


3. (SBU) Ba Hung praised the strengthened relationship
between the United States and Vietnam in 2005, noting that
the highlight was Prime Minister Phan Van Khai's June 2005
visit to the United States. 2005 produced many agreements
between the Vietnam and the United States at the government
and business levels, and the task in 2006 is to implement
all of these agreements. The second task is to work to
bring Vietnam into the WTO, a goal Vietnam wants to achieve
this year. There is a great deal of work to do on Vietnam's
WTO entry, Ba Hung conceded, but signals from the United
States appear to Vietnam to be positive, and the GVN will
"try to respond positively" after the most recent round of
negotiations. Third, the GVN is preparing for the visit of
President Bush to Vietnam in the fall of 2006. Combined,
these tasks represent an intensive pace of relations, he
said.


4. (SBU) Vietnam does not, at the moment, see any major
obstacles to ongoing good relations, Ba Hung continued. The
ongoing Human Rights Dialogue demonstrates that both sides
have overcome the obstacles that might prevent such a
dialogue, and no other major political or economic issues
appear to be insurmountable. Of course some "working level
difficulties" still exist, he said.


5. (SBU) One of those working level difficulties is the
ongoing negotiation for Vietnam's entry into the WTO, Ba
Hung explained. There has been progress: "The U.S.
delegation told us that before the last round of talks, we
were 20 centimeters apart; after the talks we are only two
centimeters apart. We hope the next round brings us
together." The GVN needs to review the U.S. recommendations
and suggestions, and the U.S. side needs to examine the GVN
offer. These are technical differences, he said, that do
not rise to the title of "obstacle."


6. (SBU) In the realm of political issues, there remains a
great deal of work to be done on human rights and religious
freedom, Ba Hung said. "With some principled actions we
have taken together in the last year, such as the exchange
of letters on religious freedom between Vice Foreign
Minister Le Van Bang and Ambassador-at-Large for Religious
Freedom John Hanford, we have created guidelines and
principles for our joint work and cooperation to settle
differences on this matter," he continued. Since that
exchange of letters, Vietnam has done a lot, including
improving Vietnam's legal framework for religious belief,
creating better conditions for religious practice, and
making a concerted effort to meet the demands of the United
States regarding prisoners of concern. Of course, GVN
actions were based on a desire to improve conditions for
Vietnamese people and had nothing to do with pressure from
the United States or the EU; nonetheless, where possible,
GVN leadership attempts to take into account the concerns of
the international community and respond to those as much as
possible. The "as much as possible" construction means that
we will not be able to satisfy each other all the time, Ba

HANOI 00000461 002.2 OF 004


Hung added. "Our security concerns on the one hand and your
laws on the other will create a conflict," he said.


7. (SBU) Vietnam has shown its cooperation with the United
States on this issue in various ways, Ba Hung continued,
including visits and dialogues and even facilitating
meetings with "so-called dissidents" that the GVN would
really rather not see happen. The result of this, Vietnam
hopes, will be a USG determination to remove Vietnam from
the list of Countries of Particular Concern for religious
freedom.


8. (SBU) Grove noted that true security comes from the rule
of law, and said that, in the eyes of the State/Foreign
Operations Subcommittee, Vietnam's way of thinking on this
subject is coming closer to the United States' way of
thinking. Threats, where they exist, are often
transnational, such as drugs, HIV/AIDS and avian influenza
(AI). This is why the United States assists Vietnam,
particularly in HIV and AI prevention. Ba Hung responded
that Vietnam greatly appreciates U.S. assistance in these
areas and is aware that it has to work very hard to ensure
that the assistance is used properly. U.S. AI and HIV/AIDS
assistance represents one of the largest projects the GVN
has with any country, so the Ministry of Health (MOH) is
under significant pressure to do a good job. The GVN is
aware that President Bush will want to see how these funds
are being spent, and so MOH needs to strengthen its efforts.


9. (SBU) AI and HIV/AIDS are threats to Vietnam's
socioeconomic and national security, Grove continued.
Vietnam faces other real challenges as well that come from
its neighbors' actions, such as drugs and trafficking in
persons (TIP),that cross borders. Ba Hung agreed, noting
that the long, difficult-to-police border with Cambodia is
the site of significant trafficking in women in children as
well as drugs. Vietnam has made a strong effort to control
TIP, but it still exists and is still a major problem.
Grove said that the USG knows that Vietnam understands the
dangers of drugs, HIV/AIDS, AI, TIP and other transnational
threats, but the challenge is how to make less responsible
regional states such as Cambodia and Burma understand the
dangers as well. Burma is a major source point for these
transnational threats, he observed. How can Vietnam engage
with Burma to address them?


10. (SBU) Ba Hung said that Vietnam addressed these issues
with Cambodia in the context of annual interagency
discussions held during leadership visits. Lately, the
focus has been on TIP, drugs and the rising problem of
gasoline and oil smuggling. Another problem is the issue of
ethnic minority migrants from the Central Highlands
illegally crossing the border into Cambodia. Vietnam has
been unable to stop this. Burma is a different story.
Vietnam has "good, not great" relations with Burma and has
posted some successes in working with Rangoon on fighting
drugs. It remains a challenge, though, with some denial of
real political problems by the Burmese government.


11. (SBU) Grove said he hopes our areas of bilateral
cooperation can be increased and expanded. He added that he
hopes that Vietnam will be able to play an active and
constructive role in the region, and encourage positive
developments within ASEAN and other regional organizations.
Vietnam should be outward-looking and more involved with its
neighbors, and that means more than simple cooperation;
pressure and influence are crucial. Drug trafficking in
Cambodia, for example, is treated as a trivial criminal
offense, with traffickers receiving little more than a slap
on the wrist. Ba Hung said that Vietnam's leaders try to
persuade Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen to be more
effective in the fight against transnational threats.
Vietnam enforces drug laws vigorously, and executes "many"
drug dealers each year. In Cambodia, it is easy for them to
escape prosecution. Vietnam's enforcement is much better,
but it is difficult to persuade Hun Sen to follow the same
path. Alluding to China, Ba Hung said "it is difficult to
get Cambodia to cooperate with us because they listen to
someone else." The Cambodians are interested in give-and-
take, and suggestions accompanied by either the offer of
assistance or the threat to cut off assistance are more
effective than discussions based solely on goodwill and
friendship. Hun Sen does not listen to Vietnam, Ba Hung
said, because Vietnam has no leverage. China, however, has
leverage - and thus Hun Sen's ear. Regardless, Vietnam will
continue to press Cambodia to act responsibly.


HANOI 00000461 003.2 OF 004


MFA SOUTHEAST ASIA DEPARTMENT
--------------


12. (SBU) Later the same day, Grove met with MFA Director
General and Assistant Minister for Southeast Asia Do Ngoc
Son. Grove said he is interested in Vietnam's regional role
and concerned about Vietnam's vulnerability to transnational
threats originating in other, less responsible, Southeast
Asian countries. DG Son said that dealing with Southeast
Asia is a high priority in Vietnamese foreign policy, and
noted that no country can address transnational threats
alone. Vietnam greatly appreciates U.S. assistance on
HIV/AIDS and AI, because it provides Vietnam a "strong hand"
to combat these threats. Drugs are another major concern,
and a strong reason why Vietnam is working so closely with
other countries in the region through the ASEAN drug
committee and the six-party MOU on drug control. Vietnam
has a long border that is difficult to patrol, and so is
very vulnerable to drug trafficking, DG Son said. The GVN
appreciates U.S. anti-drug assistance and funding and would
like more.


13. (SBU) Grove said that money is not the only issue;
political will needs to be present for there to be a
reasonable return on investment for assistance. Vietnam is
clearly serious about finding solutions to the problems of
HIV/AIDS and AI, but the same cannot be said of Cambodia and
Burma. How can the region convince these governments to do
better on the issues that affect all the states in Southeast
Asia, Grove asked. Their negligence affects everyone. DG
Son responded that he questioned whether the infrastructures
in both countries are sufficient to cope with the
challenges, and noted that they are very poor countries with
significant needs for technical, material and human
resources. Vietnam is trying to build up its relations with
Cambodia by increasing the frequency of bilateral meetings
at the leadership level and at the local and provincial
levels. The success of this effort is clear already. The
recently concluded border agreement and an arrangement to
allow Cambodian citizens to use Vietnamese education and
health infrastructure in border areas are examples, he said.


14. (SBU) Grove noted the problem with corruption in
Cambodia, which exists throughout the public and private
sectors. The level of corruption has reached such
proportions that it is impacting international aid, which is
an essential part of Cambodia's operating budget. The only
country that is increasing assistance to Cambodia in the
face of this corruption is China, which increases China's
influence in Cambodia. DG Son agreed that, in Cambodia, aid
is not respected in some sectors, and therefore assistance
is not well implemented. The United States should keep in
mind that Cambodia's leaders are interested in the
development of the country for the benefit of the Cambodian
people, and to that end they are developing relations with
whatever countries can help them, which means China.
China's emergence means that it has increased influence and
presence in Southeast Asia. Vietnam cannot, and does not
want to, stop this. The challenge is how to respond to it.
In Cambodia, China is in the position to increase its
diplomatic efforts, increase its assistance, increase its
tempo of official visits, and thus increase its influence
there. Meanwhile, Vietnam is just trying to be a good
neighbor and not interfere.


15. (SBU) Grove suggested that Hun Sen's gravitation towards
the Chinese is calculated; DG Son agreed that it is, and
that it is designed to generate more foreign aid for
Cambodia. He cautioned that, if the United States continues
to harp on human rights, HIV/AIDS and corruption in
Cambodia, it will be forced to withdraw from Cambodia the
way it has with Burma, thus abdicating all influence to
China. Grove acknowledged that Hun Sen is a complex and
complicated leader, and that the United States cannot walk
away from Cambodia without allowing China to fill the
vacuum.


16. (SBU) Grove said that Burma represents an even more
difficult problem for Vietnam and the ASEAN region because
of the "storm cloud" of drugs that gathers over Burma and
then spreads to other countries. The United States hopes
Vietnam will help find a solution to the political situation
in Burma that allows these transnational problems to fester.
Grove said that the United States understands that Vietnam
regards the situation in Burma as an internal affair, but
noted that the problems that Burma exports harm Vietnamese
citizens and Vietnamese children.

HANOI 00000461 004.2 OF 004




17. (SBU) DG Son said that ASEAN is in the process of
gathering information on Burma, while respecting the
principle of non-interference in internal affairs of member
states. ASEAN acknowledges the negative effects on member
states of the situation in Burma. The long embargo and
strong sanctions of the international community and the
United States have driven Burma into the arms of the
Chinese. When Khin Nyunt was in the government, more was
possible, but now that Than Shwe has taken total control,
things are more uncertain. It is possible that the United
States and the EU are demanding too much from Burma and
asking the government to change too fast. The leadership is
military, trying to protect itself and survive. ASEAN's
strategy is to engage them, which is why Burma was admitted
to ASEAN, and as a result they agreed to the road map.
Engagement at such a high level may be too radical for the
United States DG Son said, but it is the right direction:
give them time, encourage them and engage them. Pressure
and isolation will not change the regime in Burma, it will
simply deprive the USG of the opportunity to discover what
and how they are thinking. The USG is blocking them from
speaking, and simultaneously building a wall between itself
and the people and leaders of Burma. That means that,
instead of a dialogue, the USG is talking to a wall. And
for the Burmese generals, DG Son concluded, the only way
around that wall is north.


18. (SBU) Grove said the SPDC is its own worst enemy and is
unwilling to talk. Grove had wanted to visit Burma on this
trip, but was not allowed to go. DG Son suggested that this
is probably the result of strong USG measures against Burma.
The United States should reduce and soften its actions
against Burma and see what the reaction is to that. For
Asians, "a soft voice is easier to listen to than shouting."
The United States has an important role to play in the
region and can help a lot. The more the United States
assists and takes part in the economic development of poor
states in the region, the better. In particular, DG Son
said, Laos and Cambodia need assistance. "Don't talk about
human rights with them," he counseled. "A country that
needs health, food, humanitarian and development assistance
is concerned with its stomach, not its human rights." DG
Son suggested a "2 + 1" formulation for the delivery of
foreign assistance to the region, which could entail the
United States and Vietnam partnering to provide aid to a
third country. Like Vietnam's relationship with the United
States, as economic development occurs with other states in
Southeast Asia, engagement on more issues of importance to
the United States will be possible.


19. (U) Mr. Grove has cleared this message.

MARINE