Identifier
Created
Classification
Origin
05HANOI3256
2005-12-13 03:25:00
UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
Embassy Hanoi
Cable title:  

Codel Chris Smith Discusses Human Rights, TIP with

Tags:  PREL PGOV PHUM OVIP VM TIP HUMANR RELFREE APEC ASEAN 
pdf how-to read a cable
This record is a partial extract of the original cable. The full text of the original cable is not available.
UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 06 HANOI 003256 

SIPDIS

SENSITIVE

STATE FOR EAP/MLS, H/EAP

E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: PREL PGOV PHUM OVIP VM TIP HUMANR RELFREE APEC ASEAN
SUBJECT: Codel Chris Smith Discusses Human Rights, TIP with
Senior Vietnamese Representatives

UNCLAS SECTION 01 OF 06 HANOI 003256

SIPDIS

SENSITIVE

STATE FOR EAP/MLS, H/EAP

E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: PREL PGOV PHUM OVIP VM TIP HUMANR RELFREE APEC ASEAN
SUBJECT: Codel Chris Smith Discusses Human Rights, TIP with
Senior Vietnamese Representatives


1. (SBU) Summary: Visiting Congressman (and vice-Chairman
of the House International Relations Committee) Christopher
Smith (R-NJ) met with two of Vietnam's most seasoned America
experts, Vice Foreign Minister Le Van Bang and National
Assemblywoman Madame Ton Nhu Thi Ninh in separate meetings.
Congressman Smith engaged head-on with both on the issues of
human rights, religious freedom, trafficking in persons, POW-
MIAs, Vietnam's two-child per couple policy, and Vietnam's
development. Bang and Ninh both asked Congressman Smith to
consider Vietnam's political situation in the context of
Vietnam's emergence from years of war and relatively recent
openness to the world. Congressman Smith asked Bang and
Ninh for aggressive steps to implement religious freedom
laws and protect the human rights of Vietnam's citizens. It
was in every way a frank exchange of views. Both
Congressman Smith and the Ambassador raised specific human
rights cases, including Nam Liem and an incident December 1
involving dissident Hoang Minh Chinh and an angry mob
(reported septel). End Summary.

Trafficking in Persons
--------------


2. (SBU) Congressman Chris Smith (R-NJ) met Vice Foreign
Minister Le Van Bang at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs
December 2. Noting that this was his third visit to Vietnam
since 1984, Congressman Smith praised the positive
developments in bilateral relations and the successful visit
of Prime Minister Phan Van Khai to Washington, and added
that his own most important issues are human rights and
humanitarian efforts. He advised VFM Bang that he is the
author of the Trafficking Victims Protection Act that
created the Trafficking in Persons Report, and urged Vietnam
to do more to work with the United States to stop
traffickers. Bang replied that Vietnam "totally supports"
the United States position in condemning trafficking in
persons and wants to address TIP as a "joint venture" with

the United States. Vietnam takes TIP seriously and
recognizes that it is impossible to combat TIP alone. "We
need to cooperate with you, with Cambodia, China and
Singapore, among others," he said. Congressman Smith noted
that the United States continues to have concerns about the
fate of the workers who were abused in the 1999 Kil Soo
Lee/Daewoosa labor trafficking case. Bang replied that
export labor is a fact of life in a country with high
unemployment and a relatively low level of economic
development like Vietnam. Vietnam's challenge is to learn
to take advantage of the economic opportunities represented
by labor export while not allowing Vietnamese laborers to be
exploited, he stressed.

Religious Freedom
--------------


3. (SBU) Congressman Smith said he and others in the USG are
glad that the GVN has faced the issue of forced
renunciations of faith and religious freedom. Vietnam must
now focus on implementation of the law at all levels,
respecting the right of all Vietnamese to believe or not
believe as they wish. Congressman Smith continued that,
while he understands that religious persecution is not legal
in Vietnam, there have been no instances of officials being
punished or held accountable when they have violated
Vietnamese laws and regulations protecting religious belief.
Bang encouraged Congressman Smith to meet with as many
citizens and religious leaders as possible to learn about
the religious developments in Vietnam. "In the past, when
this was a stricter society and a command economy, freedom
of religion was a problem. Now, however, we have opened up
and we recognize that belief is important and a fundamental
freedom. This has been expressed in the ordinance on
religion and in the decree implementing that ordinance."
Local officials should, of course, follow the ordinance and
the laws of Vietnam, Bang said. "On the whole, Vietnam's
religious freedom environment has changed. One can go to
churches, pagodas or religious schools. New places of
worship and old ones that have been rehabilitated abound,
and there are almost 20 million believers in Vietnam." Bang
described a ceremony a few days before in which 57 new
Catholic priests were ordained as an example of religious
developments.


4. (SBU) Bang acknowledged that, at the local level, "people
move more slowly." At the moment, he said, the GVN is
working on a request to require local governments to report
to the central government on their progress in implementing
the ordinance and PM's instruction on religion. This
exercise will demonstrate the central government's
seriousness and will force local authorities to study the
new legislation, he added. Congressman Smith commented that
in Vietnam, leaders often say one thing while localities do
another.


5. (SBU) Bang confessed that in Vietnam, there remain
problems between religions that can undermine political
stability. "We are working on accommodating the concerns
you have raised, which is what explains the release of such
figures as Nguyen Dan Que and Father Ly," he said. "But we
have a problem with religions being exploited by politically
unscrupulous individuals for negative ends, totally at odds
with religious purposes." He said that Vietnam looks at the
volatile situation in southern Thailand as an example of
what happens when politics and religion mix and merge
freely. Congressman Smith said that while the United States
shares Vietnam's concerns about religions being used as a
pretext for political violence, those who do that are a
small minority of believers. "There is a place for people
of faith to talk about politics and policy," Congressman
Smith said, "and this is a way for the people in power to
learn and for the government to improve." Differing policy
opinions are not the problem, Bang responded. Political
instability is a problem, which is one reason why the GVN
has a policy of not using violence against people and
crowds. Democracy in Vietnam is a "step-by-step process,"
he said.

Central Highlands
--------------


6. (SBU) Congressman Smith asked Bang if Vietnam would
consider taking "bold steps" to reconcile with those who
feel that they are at odds with the GVN, such as the ethnic
minority populations of the Central Highlands. Bang said
that the GVN has a policy of reconciliation and
accommodation, which is what drives the GVN's willingness
and desire to work with the USG to unify families from that
region which have been split. "We don't want them to have
to go to Cambodia or elsewhere for months and years before
they can join family members in the United States, if there
is a way we can help them go directly there," Bang
explained.

Abortion and Family Planning
--------------


7. (SBU) Congressman Smith told VFM Bang he is deeply
concerned about the prevalence of abortion in the world, but
particularly Asia, where sex-selection abortions have
resulted in huge imbalances in the numbers of boys and girls
in India and China, among other places. Bang said Vietnam
shares Congressman Smith's concern about this issue, noting
that China's girl deficit has fueled trafficking of women
from Vietnam to China for the purposes of marrying Chinese
men who cannot find wives themselves. With 1.5 million new
births a year, Vietnam's population pressures are intense,
Bang continued, and Vietnam has no choice but to pursue
serious measures to address population growth. Preventing
abortions is a noble goal, Bang said; a far better solution
than abortion is to provide the social and financial methods
and resources to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first
place. With that in mind, the GVN has hopes that some of
the effort and money being expended in Vietnam on HIV/AIDS
prevention will bring access to contraception to vulnerable
and poor rural areas that currently lack it. This will also
have a beneficial impact on the health of women, Bang
continued, because of the negative impact of multiple
abortions on the long-term health of women. Vietnam wants
very much to avoid the use of abortion while addressing real
population growth problems, he concluded.

Other Issues
--------------


8. (SBU) Bang provided a rosy review of Vietnam's recent
economic achievements, capped with the analysis that
"people, and countries, are freer when they are economically
and financially independent." Economic well-being for
countries and individuals is "empowering," Bang said, and
with that in mind, he hopes that Congressman Smith, with his
well-documented concern for Vietnam's human rights
situation, will be a strong supporter of Vietnam's bid for
WTO entry and of Permanent Normal Trading Relations (PNTR)
between Vietnam and the United States. Congressman Smith
replied that religious freedom is also a concern when
evaluating Vietnam's human rights record.


9. (SBU) Bang told Congressman Smith that Vietnam remains
"very worried" about developments in Asia and Southeast
Asia. Sino-Japanese relations, he said, have deteriorated
seriously, to the point where the countries are beginning to
look like enemies. Vietnam, a much smaller and weaker
country than Japan, could not possibly resist China more
effectively than Japan can, he said. Southeast Asia as a
whole is both changing and under pressure from "new sources
and countries." This is driving ASEAN's and Vietnam's
effort to develop and improve relations with "all other
countries." With this in mind, Vietnam appreciates very
highly President Bush's statement to ASEAN leaders made
during the recent APEC Summit in South Korea. "Working
closely with the United States is important for Vietnam, and
ASEAN, to avoid the development of an imbalance in our
international relations," Bang said. (Note: This is
standard Le Van Bang code for encouraging us to match
China's diplomatic and other overtures in the region. End
Note.)

10. (SBU) "We hope to keep APEC growing," Bang said, "even
though some countries want to shrink APEC in order to expand
other organizations that are not as inclusive." He said
Vietnam is watching the ASEAN+1 process closely, as is
Indonesia, Singapore and the Philippines, to avoid any
developments that could weaken ASEAN.


11. (SBU) Congressman Smith raised the issue of POW-MIA
fullest possible accounting operations. He said Vietnam's
cooperation on this issue has been "tremendous," but that
more remains to be done, particularly in the areas of
archival research and underwater recovery. Bang noted that
Vietnam's commitment to working with the United States on
this issue has never faltered, no matter what the state of
bilateral relations, but that the United States should
endeavor to "create the environment for continuing
productive results."

Dissident Cases
--------------


12. (SBU) Congressman Smith expressed his concern that
Vietnamese dissidents who spoke with the International
Relations Committee or who were mentioned by the
International Relations Committee have been sentenced to
long prison terms. He mentioned in particular Father Ly
(subsequently amnestied) and more recently, Hoa Hao activist
Nam Liem, and requested Bang deliver a letter to PM Khai
which included a list of prisoners of concern which should
be freed.


13. (SBU) The Ambassador contributed his own concern about
an incident involving mob intimidation of (and possible
violence against) dissident Hoang Minh Chinh the day before
(septel). That a mob was able to threaten, damage the
property of, and commit violence against Chinh without the
intervention of the police until much later sends a very
strong negative signal, the Ambassador said, and would
result in negative international attention to Vietnam's
human rights record. He asked Bang to keep that in mind and
encourage the GVN to ensure that those who committed violent
acts were punished under the law. Bang said he did not know
about the incident involving Chinh, but said that a similar
incident where a vice minister accompanying Prime Minister
Khai on his trip to the United States was assaulted and
punched in the face on a Washington street was of GVN
concern. Bang said he heard that the perpetrator in that
incident would not face criminal charges, a result that
would not be taken well in Vietnam. (Note: Bang's
information is incorrect. This case is unresolved. End
Note.)

Meeting with Madam Ninh
--------------


14. (SBU) Congressman Smith, accompanied by the Ambassador,
subsequently met with Madam Ton Nu Thi Ninh, Vice Chairwoman
of the National Assembly's Foreign Relations Committee. She
was joined by Luong Phan Cu, Vice Chairman of the Social
Affairs Committee. Congressman Smith opened by noting that,
among his Republican and Democratic colleagues in Congress,
the issue of religious freedom is an important one, and
Congressman Smith recently chaired hearings on the situation
in Vietnam. Although there has been progress, continued
forced renunciations are an outrage. Changes in Vietnam's
legal framework on religion, including the Prime Minister's
February 2005 Instruction on Protestantism, give hope that
forced renunciations will cease, but implementation of the
Instruction and other laws is key. Law enforcement and
other officials who violate Vietnam's laws need to be held
accountable.

TIP: Round Two
--------------


15. (SBU) Another issue of concern is trafficking in persons
(TIP),which is an area in which the United States and
Vietnam need to work together more closely, Congressman
Smith continued. This is a worldwide crime in which
organized criminal groups move quickly and succeed by buying
off officials. The United States is committed to ending
this modern-day slavery, and we try to provide shelter and
give asylum to victims. The Congressman described the new
trafficking legislation in which military activities such as
peacekeeping operations are more closely scrutinized to
ensure that trafficking and other crimes against women are
prevented. The United States is prepared to work with the
GVN and the National Assembly to end this international
scourge, but one issue of concern is that the victims of the
American Samoa Daewoosa case were never compensated as
promised, the Congressman said.


16. (SBU) Madam Ninh described in familiar terms Vietnam's
commitment to human rights for its people, adding that the
term "human rights" is a new one for Vietnam. Fighting for
independence from the French and granting universal suffrage
were matters of fact, although no one at the time considered
these to be human rights issues. At one point, developed
societies like the United States and those in Western Europe
concerned themselves with the rights of the majority, but
now they are able to focus on the rights of minorities, both
at home and in other countries. Vietnam's priorities are
different, however, and that is a fact that the United
States and others should respect, she said.


17. (SBU) For Vietnam, trafficking in persons is one price
to pay for integrating into the world community, Madam Ninh
continued. Although Vietnam will never backtrack on the
course it has set for itself, it nonetheless needs to work
harder to address the negative aspects of opening up. The
GVN realizes that TIP is an important issue and has
established an interagency mechanism, led by the Ministry of
Public Security, to deal with it and cooperate with
international organizations and non-governmental
organizations, including American ones such as the Asia
Foundation. Vietnam has taken note of its status as a Tier
2 country and has made efforts to increase public awareness
of the issue and raise the awareness of lawmakers as well.
Vietnam has also sought to cooperate with its neighbors and
within ASEAN to address the problem of trafficked women and
also to better educate women who would go to Taiwan as
brides.


18. (SBU) "I recognize that more needs to be done, but the
language in your bill (HR 3190, the Vietnam Human Rights Act
of 2005) that implies that our Government officials are
complicit in trafficking activities offends me," Madam Ninh
said. There may be cases of corrupt policemen turning a
blind eye to trafficking, but to imply that there is active
cooperation is wrong. "More care needs to be taken in what
language you use to describe the situation here," she urged.


19. (SBU) The United States would like to see more
transparency on Vietnam's part, Congressman Smith said, in
not only addressing trafficking but other issues, such as
religious freedom. It is true that in western societies the
majority does rule, but the United States has learned much
from its experience with slavery and the period in which
people were separate but unequal; focusing on the majority
at the expense of the minority will not do. The problem of
trafficking in persons is in indeed part of opening up to
the world, and it has particularly become a problem since
the breakup of the Soviet Union. Now, Russian gangs have
been released on to the world and traffickers are looking to
traffic Vietnamese women, Congressman Smith said.

"Abortion Only A Last Resort"
--------------


20. (SBU) The Congressman highlighted his commitment to
defending the rights of unborn children, noting that this is
the issue that initiated his commitment to human rights
issues. In China and India, there is a huge problem of sex-
selection abortions, and with 60 million girls in India and
100 million girls in China missing because of this, there
will be a magnet effect for brides from Vietnam and
elsewhere. Sex-selection abortion is a gender crime and a
serious human rights problem, Congressman Smith underlined.


21. (SBU) Vietnam's Ministry of Health has issued an
instruction whereby doctors cannot inform the parents of the
sex of their unborn child, Madam Ninh observed. Although
Vietnam's problem is not as severe as that of other
countries, the Government is aware that there might be a
tendency to abort girls and has taken steps to address this.
In Vietnam, the right to abortion exists, but, from the
point of view of women's health, the GVN does not look
favorably upon careless abortion. Family planning is
considered to be the preferred approach, with abortion as a
"last resort," Madam Ninh explained.

The Broader Relationship
--------------


22. (SBU) Turning to the issue of religious freedom, Madam
Ninh noted that she is aware of Congressman Smith's recent
press statement on conditions in Vietnam, but disagrees with
his observation that the situation is deteriorating.
Clearly, both of them would have to agree to disagree on
this matter, but hopefully the Congressman shared the view
that, for the sake of the bilateral relationship, both sides
should make efforts to narrow their differences. If the
Congressman does not value the precious ties that the United
States and Vietnam now enjoy, then meeting like this is a
waste of time. The same would be true if Vietnam insisted
on seeking information from the United States on certain
aspects of Guantanamo Bay. In fact, Vietnam allows U.S.
officials and representatives to visit certain "undesirable"
individuals living in Vietnam. Explaining that she is
agnostic, Madam Ninh said that she nonetheless respects the
Congressman's views and beliefs and stressed that she can
help to advance the bilateral relationship by being
respectful, but candid.


23. (SBU) The bilateral relationship is very important to
Vietnam and is important, at least symbolically, to the
United States as well, Madam Ninh continued. There are many
areas in which the two sides can cooperation, such as TIP,
trade, security, HIV/AIDS and adoptions, to name a few. In
the case of adoptions, the GVN's decision to reach an
adoptions agreement with the United States was based on the
recognition that certain Vietnamese children would be better
off in the United States. Hopefully someday Vietnamese
parents will be able to adopt these children, but, for now,
Vietnam's policy sought to do what is best for the children,
she stressed.


24. (SBU) The fact that, 30 years after the end of the war,
the United States and Vietnam have been able to reach the
point they are at today is remarkable, Madam Ninh
underlined. This is a relationship worth nurturing, and
there is room for cooperating and narrowing the two sides'
differences, which is a sentiment Madam Ninh said she hopes
Congressman Smith shares. The extent of the two sides'
differences are not such that that they cannot move forward
together, and both have to accept a certain amount of
accommodation for each other's differences and realities.
For example, the United States has sought Vietnam's
cooperation in the fullest possible accounting of those lost
in the war, and of course Vietnam has reacted positively.
In response, however, whenever the issue of Agent ORANGE is
raised, why is it that the United States insists on falling
back on the argument that the science is inadequate, Madam
Ninh asked. Some sort of U.S. gesture to show its concern
about Vietnam's losses would be welcome, Madam Ninh
stressed.


25. (SBU) American veterans received compensation for Agent
ORANGE, a cause that Congressman Smith himself championed,
Madam Ninh observed. The United States should thus be in a
position to acknowledge that those who have lived with
dioxin for decades also have been harmed and deserve
compensation. Congressman Smith responded that the first
bill he worked on was on Agent ORANGE, and that the U.S. had
stopped using the substance because of "presumptive
disability". It will be important for the United States and
Vietnam to cooperate with each other to understand the
damage Agent ORANGE has caused from an environmental point
of view. It is clear that dioxin does cause problems, but
to research further into this requires bilateral
cooperation. Explaining that his religious beliefs have led
him to defend those who cannot defend themselves,
Congressman Smith said that he simlarly criticized the
incidents involving Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay. Human
rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty
International are very critical of the United States and
what happened in these places, and those who were involved
in these cases have been punished. Significantly, once the
USG recognized that there was a problem, it took steps to
fix it and ensure that it never happens again, Congressman
Smith stressed.

Freedom of Religion Vs. National Unity
--------------


26. (SBU) Vietnam should take steps to allow faith-based
groups to participate more actively in social and charitable
activities, Congressman Smith urged. Madam Ninh responded
that, in Hue, the Congressman's next stop, Catholics and
Buddhists work together to care for people living with
HIV/AIDS. Vietnam's Ordinance on Religion and Belief, which
allows for a greater role for religious groups, went through
"dozens of revisions" in the National Assembly, Madam Ninh
said. Some have criticized that this law still seeks too
much Government control of religion. However, in a society
that is in flux, guidelines are necessary, otherwise it is
too easy for officials and others to take arbitrary actions.
U.S. laws have evolved over time, and there is no reason to
doubt that this religion law will be revised as conditions
in Vietnam change. The greatest challenge will be in how
the law is implemented and enforced, because some local
officials are unaware of the law or reluctant to enforce it,
Madam Ninh said.


27. (SBU) It seems that, within Vietnam's legal framework on
religion, there is a line that, if crossed, will get someone
arrested, Congressman Smith responded. If someone speaks
out or speaks his or her mind, then there will be trouble.
For example, Hoa Hao Buddhist Nam Liem submitted written
testimony to a Congressman Smith-chaired Congressional
hearing on Vietnam in June 2005, and Liem was arrested in
September and sentenced to six years in prison. Vietnam's
law also makes reference to "national unity." Diversity and
a diversity of opinions should lead to unity. Why not let
people have beliefs as they see fit, Congressman Smith
asked.


28. (SBU) Noting that she will never be able to convince
Congressman Smith, Madam Ninh responded that, for Vietnam,
it is not an issue of faith but an issue of national
security. National unity is not a slogan or an expedient.
Vietnam has paid a high price to unify, and anything that
will undermine its unity is not welcome. Vietnam wants to
reconcile with overseas Vietnamese, particularly those in
the United States. However, some of these groups and
individuals have discovered their human rights and democracy
vocations very recently. "I was in Saigon from 1973 to

1975. Where were many of these people? What were they
doing then? They are only active now because they lost
their country," Madam Ninh said. She concluded by urging
Congressman Smith to seek to hear both sides of the story:
"It offends us that you only listen to Human Rights Watch or
other groups without hearing our side of the story, too,"
she said.


29. (SBU) Asked to comment, Vice Chairman Cu noted that, in
drafting the new ordinance on religion, the National
Assembly sought the opinions of all religious groups and
stakeholders. Since its promulgation, these same groups
have praised its implementation, but there are also areas
for improvement. The National Assembly is working with
relevant GVN agencies and counterparts in neighboring
countries to combat TIP, with the goal of eventually
eliminating it. The Social Affairs Committee is also
committed to strengthening the reproductive health of women
and encouraging family planning on a voluntary basis.
Finally, the Committee is working to alleviate the suffering
of victims of Agent ORANGE, Cu noted.


30. (U) Congressman Smith has cleared this message.

MARINE