Identifier
Created
Classification
Origin
04ROME1050
2004-03-17 12:05:00
SECRET//NOFORN
Embassy Rome
Cable title:  

MEETING BETWEEN U/S DOBRIANSKY AND ITALIAN FOREIGN

Tags:  IT KDEM PHUM PREL SENV EG HUMAN RIGHTS 
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S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 02 ROME 001050 

SIPDIS


NOFORN

E.O. 12958: DECL: 03/04/2014
TAGS: IT KDEM PHUM PREL SENV EG HUMAN RIGHTS
SUBJECT: MEETING BETWEEN U/S DOBRIANSKY AND ITALIAN FOREIGN
MINISTER FRATTINI, MARCH 4, 2004

CLASSIFIED BY: AMBASSADOR MEL SEMBLER FOR REASONS 1.5(B) AND (D)

S E C R E T SECTION 01 OF 02 ROME 001050

SIPDIS


NOFORN

E.O. 12958: DECL: 03/04/2014
TAGS: IT KDEM PHUM PREL SENV EG HUMAN RIGHTS
SUBJECT: MEETING BETWEEN U/S DOBRIANSKY AND ITALIAN FOREIGN
MINISTER FRATTINI, MARCH 4, 2004

CLASSIFIED BY: AMBASSADOR MEL SEMBLER FOR REASONS 1.5(B) AND (D)


1. (S) SUMMARY. U/S PAULA DOBRIANSKY HELD A BILATERAL
MEETING WITH FM FRATTINI ON MARCH 4 AT THE ITALIAN FOREIGN
MINISTRY. THE UNDER SECRETARY RAISED FOUR ISSUES, INCLUDING
THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES, THE U.N. HUMAN RIGHTS
COMMISSION, ECOSOC MEMBERSHIP AND MONTREAL PROTOCOL LIMITS ON
METHYL BROMIDE. AMBASSADOR SEMBLER RAISED THE ISSUE OF U/S
GROSSMAN'S RECENT TRIP TO EGYPT, IN THE CONTEXT OF THE FM'S
MEETING WITH EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT MUBARAK LATER IN THE DAY. SEE
PARA 4 FOR ACTION REQUEST.

U.S. ATTENDEES: U/S PAULA DOBRIANSKY, AMBASSADOR MEL SEMBLER,
G SPECIAL ASSISTANT CHRISTIAN WHITON (NOTETAKER)

ITALY ATTENDEES: FM FRANCO FRATTINI, MINISTER CESARE
RAGAGLINI, CHIEF OF STAFF TO MINISTER FRATTINI, DIRECTOR
GENERAL OF POLITICAL AFFAIRS AMBASSADOR GIANCARLO ARAGONA

END SUMMARY.

THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES


2. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY RAISED THE ISSUE OF THE COMMUNITY
OF DEMOCRACIES BY THANKING THE FM FOR ITALY'S SUPPORT FOR THE
COMMUNITY, AS WELL AS HIS PERSONAL ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE.
THE FM REITERATED HIS SUPPORT AND NOTED ITALY'S STRONG
INTEREST IN JOINING THE COMMUNITY'S CONVENING GROUP. HE
NOTED THAT ITALY HAD BEEN ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE
CONVENING GROUP IN THE PAST ON AN AD HOC BASIS, AND WISHED
FOR ITALY TO BE A FORMAL MEMBER. U/S DOBRIANSKY NOTED THAT
CHILE, THE CURRENT CHAIR, IS IN THE PROCESS OF ESTABLISHING
AN OPEN, TRANSPARENT PROCESS TO PLACE COUNTRIES IN THE
CONVENING GROUP IN A METHODICAL WAY. THE FM ACCEPTED THE
NECESSITY OF THIS, AND BOTH HE AND THE UNDER SECRETARY AGREED
ON THE USEFULNESS OF HAVING A MIDDLE EASTERN NATION IN THE
CONVENING GROUP, IF POSSIBLE.


3. (S) AS A SUBTOPIC TO THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES
DISCUSSION, U/S DOBRIANSKY SAID THAT EAST TIMOR'S MINISTER OF
FOREIGN AFFAIRS ASKED FOR A GROUP OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS,
WHICH CAN SHARE THEIR EXPERTISE IN THE RULE OF LAW,
INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY MATTERS AND BUILDING A PROFESSIONAL
POLICE FORCE, TO COME TO THE NATION TO CONSULT WITH THE

GOVERNMENT. PORTUGAL AND MEXICO HAVE EXPRESSED INTEREST, AND
U/S DOBRIANSKY ASKED IF ITALY WOULD PARTICIPATE. NOTING THAT
HIS NATION HAD SENT TROOPS TO EAST TIMOR, THE FM SAID ITALY
WOULD ACTIVELY EXPLORE THE IDEA.


4. (S) ACTION REQUEST: FM FRATTINI REQUESTED MORE
INFORMATION ABOUT THE INITIATIVE, AND NOTED THAT ITALY'S
EMBASSY IN WASHINGTON WOULD FOLLOW-UP WITH DEPARTMENT
OFFICIALS.

THE U.N. COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS


5. (S) NEXT, U/S DOBRIANSKY RAISED THE UPCOMING UNHRC
MEETING IN GENEVA. SHE SPECIFICALLY ASKED ABOUT ITALY'S
WILLINGNESS TO SUPPORT A CANADIAN RESOLUTION CONDEMNING IRAN
FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, PARTICULARLY IN THE WAKE OF THEIR
RECENT "ELECTIONS."


6. (S) THE FM RESPONDED THAT THIS WAS A SENSITIVE ISSUE
FOR THEM, GIVEN THEIR "FRANK, OPEN AND CRITICAL DIALOGUE WITH
IRAN." AFTER ACKNOWLEDGING IRAN'S PROBLEMS, THE FM SAID HE
DID NOT AGREE WITH THOSE WHO WANTED TO ISOLATE IRAN.


7. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY PRESSED THE FM, NOTING THAT THE
COMMISSION IS SEEN AS A FORUM WHERE THESE SPECIFIC ISSUES ARE
TO BE DISCUSSED, AND BEING OPEN AND FRANK WITH HUMAN RIGHTS
ABUSERS CAN ACTUALLY BE BENEFICIAL TO ENGAGEMENT, BECAUSE IT
LAYS DOWN MARKERS AND CREATES A SENSE OF CANDOR. SHE NOTED
THAT WE ARE ENGAGED IN DISCUSSIONS THAT INCLUDE NORTH KOREA,
YET WE STILL SPONSORED A RESOLUTION ABOUT THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS
ABUSES.


8. (S) THE UNDER SECRETARY ALSO NOTED THAT THE UNITED
STATES IS CONCERNED WITH THE MAKEUP OF THE COMMISSION, CITING
LAST YEAR'S CHAIRMANSHIP OF LIBYA, AND THE INITIAL RETICENCE
OF SOME AFRICAN NATIONS TO ALLOW AUSTRALIA TO CHAIR THIS
YEAR'S SESSION. U/S DOBRIANSKY RAISED COMMUNITY OF
DEMOCRACIES EFFORTS TO DEVELOP A DEMOCRACY CAUCUS WITHIN THIS
AND OTHER UN BODIES. THIS DEMOCRACY CAUCUS, NOW COORDINATED
UNDER CHILEAN LEADERSHIP, WILL PROVIDE A NETWORK FOR
DEMOCRACIES TO COORDINATE THEIR VOTING ON SPECIFIC
RESOLUTIONS, UN DEMOCRACY INITIATIVES, AND HOPEFULLY
CANDIDACIES FOR CHR AND OTHER BODIES.


9. (S) RETURNING TO THE CANADIAN RESOLUTION ON IRAN, U/S
DOBRIANSKY NOTED THAT WE ARE WILLING TO WORK WITH ITALY AND

ROME 00001050 001.2 OF 002

PAULA DOBRIANSKY HELD A BILATERAL
MEETING WITH FM FRATTINI ON MARCH 4 AT THE ITALIAN FOREIGN
MINISTRY. THE UNDER SECRETARY RAISED FOUR ISSUES, INCLUDING
THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES, THE U.N. HUMAN RIGHTS
COMMISSION, ECOSOC MEMBERSHIP AND MONTREAL PROTOCOL LIMITS ON
METHYL BROMIDE. AMBASSADOR SEMBLER RAISED THE ISSUE OF U/S
GROSSMAN'S RECENT TRIP TO EGYPT, IN THE CONTEXT OF THE FM'S
MEETING WITH EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT MUBARAK LATER IN THE DAY. SEE
PARA 4 FOR ACTION REQUEST.

U.S. ATTENDEES: U/S PAULA DOBRIANSKY, AMBASSADOR MEL SEMBLER,
G SPECIAL ASSISTANT CHRISTIAN WHITON (NOTETAKER)

ITALY ATTENDEES: FM FRANCO FRATTINI, MINISTER CESARE
RAGAGLINI, CHIEF OF STAFF TO MINISTER FRATTINI, DIRECTOR
GENERAL OF POLITICAL AFFAIRS AMBASSADOR GIANCARLO ARAGONA

END SUMMARY.

THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES


2. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY RAISED THE ISSUE OF THE COMMUNITY
OF DEMOCRACIES BY THANKING THE FM FOR ITALY'S SUPPORT FOR THE
COMMUNITY, AS WELL AS HIS PERSONAL ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE.
THE FM REITERATED HIS SUPPORT AND NOTED ITALY'S STRONG
INTEREST IN JOINING THE COMMUNITY'S CONVENING GROUP. HE
NOTED THAT ITALY HAD BEEN ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE
CONVENING GROUP IN THE PAST ON AN AD HOC BASIS, AND WISHED
FOR ITALY TO BE A FORMAL MEMBER. U/S DOBRIANSKY NOTED THAT
CHILE, THE CURRENT CHAIR, IS IN THE PROCESS OF ESTABLISHING
AN OPEN, TRANSPARENT PROCESS TO PLACE COUNTRIES IN THE
CONVENING GROUP IN A METHODICAL WAY. THE FM ACCEPTED THE
NECESSITY OF THIS, AND BOTH HE AND THE UNDER SECRETARY AGREED
ON THE USEFULNESS OF HAVING A MIDDLE EASTERN NATION IN THE
CONVENING GROUP, IF POSSIBLE.

3. (S) AS A SUBTOPIC TO THE COMMUNITY OF DEMOCRACIES
DISCUSSION, U/S DOBRIANSKY SAID THAT EAST TIMOR'S MINISTER OF
FOREIGN AFFAIRS ASKED FOR A GROUP OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS,
WHICH CAN SHARE THEIR EXPERTISE IN THE RULE OF LAW,
INDEPENDENT JUDICIARY MATTERS AND BUILDING A PROFESSIONAL
POLICE FORCE, TO COME TO THE NATION TO CONSULT WITH THE
GOVERNMENT. PORTUGAL AND MEXICO HAVE EXPRESSED INTEREST, AND
U/S DOBRIANSKY ASKED IF ITALY WOULD PARTICIPATE. NOTING THAT
HIS NATION HAD SENT TROOPS TO EAST TIMOR, THE FM SAID ITALY
WOULD ACTIVELY EXPLORE THE IDEA.


4. (S) ACTION REQUEST: FM FRATTINI REQUESTED MORE
INFORMATION ABOUT THE INITIATIVE, AND NOTED THAT ITALY'S
EMBASSY IN WASHINGTON WOULD FOLLOW-UP WITH DEPARTMENT
OFFICIALS.

THE U.N. COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS


5. (S) NEXT, U/S DOBRIANSKY RAISED THE UPCOMING UNHRC
MEETING IN GENEVA. SHE SPECIFICALLY ASKED ABOUT ITALY'S
WILLINGNESS TO SUPPORT A CANADIAN RESOLUTION CONDEMNING IRAN
FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, PARTICULARLY IN THE WAKE OF THEIR
RECENT "ELECTIONS."


6. (S) THE FM RESPONDED THAT THIS WAS A SENSITIVE ISSUE
FOR THEM, GIVEN THEIR "FRANK, OPEN AND CRITICAL DIALOGUE WITH
IRAN." AFTER ACKNOWLEDGING IRAN'S PROBLEMS, THE FM SAID HE
DID NOT AGREE WITH THOSE WHO WANTED TO ISOLATE IRAN.


7. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY PRESSED THE FM, NOTING THAT THE
COMMISSION IS SEEN AS A FORUM WHERE THESE SPECIFIC ISSUES ARE
TO BE DISCUSSED, AND BEING OPEN AND FRANK WITH HUMAN RIGHTS
ABUSERS CAN ACTUALLY BE BENEFICIAL TO ENGAGEMENT, BECAUSE IT
LAYS DOWN MARKERS AND CREATES A SENSE OF CANDOR. SHE NOTED
THAT WE ARE ENGAGED IN DISCUSSIONS THAT INCLUDE NORTH KOREA,
YET WE STILL SPONSORED A RESOLUTION ABOUT THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS
ABUSES.


8. (S) THE UNDER SECRETARY ALSO NOTED THAT THE UNITED
STATES IS CONCERNED WITH THE MAKEUP OF THE COMMISSION, CITING
LAST YEAR'S CHAIRMANSHIP OF LIBYA, AND THE INITIAL RETICENCE
OF SOME AFRICAN NATIONS TO ALLOW AUSTRALIA TO CHAIR THIS
YEAR'S SESSION. U/S DOBRIANSKY RAISED COMMUNITY OF
DEMOCRACIES EFFORTS TO DEVELOP A DEMOCRACY CAUCUS WITHIN THIS
AND OTHER UN BODIES. THIS DEMOCRACY CAUCUS, NOW COORDINATED
UNDER CHILEAN LEADERSHIP, WILL PROVIDE A NETWORK FOR
DEMOCRACIES TO COORDINATE THEIR VOTING ON SPECIFIC
RESOLUTIONS, UN DEMOCRACY INITIATIVES, AND HOPEFULLY
CANDIDACIES FOR CHR AND OTHER BODIES.


9. (S) RETURNING TO THE CANADIAN RESOLUTION ON IRAN, U/S
DOBRIANSKY NOTED THAT WE ARE WILLING TO WORK WITH ITALY AND

ROME 00001050 002.1 OF 002


Y. THE FM CONCLUDED THAT
"I AM CONVINCED ON THIS ISSUE, WE MUST BE UNITED."

ECOSOC


10. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY BROUGHT UP THE U.N. ECONOMIC AND
SOCIAL COUNCIL, AND STATED THAT WE WANTED TO ENCOURAGE
DEMOCRATIC NATIONS TO PARTICIPATE AND STRATEGIZE WITH ITALY
IN ACHIEVING THIS GOAL: WORKING IN ECOSOC TO ELECT MORE
DEMOCRACIES TO THE CHR AND ECOSOC. THE FM RESPONDED THAT "WE
ARE ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT SPREADING DEMOCRACY, SO WE CAN HELP."

METHYL BROMIDE


11. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY BROUGHT UP THE TOPIC OF METHYL
BROMIDE AND THE UPCOMING MEETING IN MONTREAL TO ADDRESS THE
CRITICAL NEED OF AMERICAN AGRICULTURE TO TEMPORARILY SLOW THE
PHASING OUT OF THIS CHEMICAL UNDER THE TERMS OF THE MONTREAL
PROTOCOL. THE U/S INDICATED THAT THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTS
THE TECHNICAL COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATION FOR THE CRITICAL USE
EXEMPTION OF 35% OF BASELINE LEVELS AND THAT THE UNITED
STATES WOULD ALSO BE SUBMITTING A SUPPLEMENTAL REQUEST OF 2%
FOR 2005. THE U/S EXPRESSED THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE
LOOKING TO HAVE PARTIES TO THE CONVENTION AGREE TO A
MULTIYEAR APPROACH TO ESTABLISHING THE CRITICAL USE
EXEMPTIONS. THE FM WAS UNFAMILIAR WITH THE ISSUE, AND U/S
DOBRIANSKY PROVIDED AN OVERVIEW. SHE EXPLAINED THAT SHE
WOULD DISCUSS IT WITH ITALIAN ENVIRONMENT MINISTER MATTEOLI,
BUT THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT AND URGENT ENOUGH TO BRING IT TO
HIS ATTENTION AS WELL. THE FM SEEMED INTERESTED IN THE
ISSUE, AND REQUESTED MORE DETAILS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
GME/EGYPTIAN RESISTANCE


12. (S) AMBASSADOR SEMBLER BROUGHT UP RECENT DIFFERENCES
THAT OCCURRED IN A MEETING IN CAIRO BETWEEN U/S GROSSMAN AND
EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT MUBARAK OVER THE TOPIC OF THE GREATER
MIDDLE EAST INITIATIVE. THE AMBASSADOR NOTED THAT THE FM AND
PM BERLUSCONI WERE SOON TO MEET WITH MUBARAK AND THAT HE
HOPED THEY COULD HELP SMOOTH THINGS OVER. FRATTINI WAS AWARE
OF THE ISSUE AND NOTED THAT AN EGYPTIAN JOURNALIST RECENTLY
ASKED HIM ABOUT "THE FAILURE OF UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN'S
VISIT." (FRATTINI ASKED THE JOURNALIST WHY HE CHARACTERIZED
IT THAT WAY, TO WHICH THE JOURNALIST REPLIED THAT WAS THE
GENERAL PERCEPTION IN EGYPT.) U/S DOBRIANSKY NOTED THAT SOME
IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAD THE PERCEPTION THAT THE INITIATIVE WAS
SOMETHING BEING IMPOSED ON THEM, WHICH IS NOT TRUE. RATHER,
IT IS A WAY TO GET MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES TO TAKE OWNERSHIP
OF THE ISSUES AND ADDRESS THEM DIRECTLY, EXPLAINED U/S
DOBRIANSKY. THE FM REPLIED THAT ITALY SUPPORTS A
CONSULTATIVE, NON-PATERNALISTIC APPROACH, AND WOULD TRY TO
EXPLAIN THE CONCEPT IN THEIR MEETING WITH MUBARAK LATER IN
THE DAY.


13. U/S DOBRIANSKY CONCLUDED THE MEETING BY NOTING HER
APPRECIATION FOR ITALY'S HELP AND WILLINGNESS TO TAKE A STAND
ON ISSUES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO THE U.S.


SEMBLER


SVC FOR MISSING NOFORN PARA'S AND PARA 13 MISSING MARKING

ROME 00001050 002.2 OF 002


Y. THE FM CONCLUDED THAT
"I AM CONVINCED ON THIS ISSUE, WE MUST BE UNITED."

ECOSOC


10. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY BROUGHT UP THE U.N. ECONOMIC AND
SOCIAL COUNCIL, AND STATED THAT WE WANTED TO ENCOURAGE
DEMOCRATIC NATIONS TO PARTICIPATE AND STRATEGIZE WITH ITALY
IN ACHIEVING THIS GOAL: WORKING IN ECOSOC TO ELECT MORE
DEMOCRACIES TO THE CHR AND ECOSOC. THE FM RESPONDED THAT "WE
ARE ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT SPREADING DEMOCRACY, SO WE CAN HELP."

METHYL BROMIDE


11. (S) U/S DOBRIANSKY BROUGHT UP THE TOPIC OF METHYL
BROMIDE AND THE UPCOMING MEETING IN MONTREAL TO ADDRESS THE
CRITICAL NEED OF AMERICAN AGRICULTURE TO TEMPORARILY SLOW THE
PHASING OUT OF THIS CHEMICAL UNDER THE TERMS OF THE MONTREAL
PROTOCOL. THE U/S INDICATED THAT THE UNITED STATES SUPPORTS
THE TECHNICAL COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATION FOR THE CRITICAL USE
EXEMPTION OF 35 OF BASELINE LEVELS AND THAT THE UNITED
STATES WOULD ALSO BE SUBMITTING A SUPPLEMENTAL REQUEST OF 2
FOR 2005. THE U/S EXPRESSED THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE
LOOKING TO HAVE PARTIES TO THE CONVENTION AGREE TO A
MULTIYEAR APPROACH TO ESTABLISHING THE CRITICAL USE
EXEMPTIONS. THE FM WAS UNFAMILIAR WITH THE ISSUE, AND U/S
DOBRIANSKY PROVIDED AN OVERVIEW. SHE EXPLAINED THAT SHE
WOULD DISCUSS IT WITH ITALIAN ENVIRONMENT MINISTER MATTEOLI,
BUT THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT AND URGENT ENOUGH TO BRING IT TO
HIS ATTENTION AS WELL. THE FM SEEMED INTERESTED IN THE
ISSUE, AND REQUESTED MORE DETAILS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
GME/EGYPTIAN RESISTANCE


12. (S) AMBASSADOR SEMBLER BROUGHT UP RECENT DIFFERENCES
THAT OCCURRED IN A MEETING IN CAIRO BETWEEN U/S GROSSMAN AND
EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT MUBARAK OVER THE TOPIC OF THE GREATER
MIDDLE EAST INITIATIVE. THE AMBASSADOR NOTED THAT THE FM AND
PM BERLUSCONI WERE SOON TO MEET WITH MUBARAK AND THAT HE
HOPED THEY COULD HELP SMOOTH THINGS OVER. FRATTINI WAS AWARE
OF THE ISSUE AND NOTED THAT AN EGYPTIAN JOURNALIST RECENTLY
ASKED HIM ABOUT "THE FAILURE OF UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN'S
VISIT." (FRATTINI ASKED THE JOURNALIST WHY HE CHARACTERIZED
IT THAT WAY, TO WHICH THE JOURNALIST REPLIED THAT WAS THE
GENERAL PERCEPTION IN EGYPT.) U/S DOBRIANSKY NOTED THAT SOME
IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAD THE PERCEPTION THAT THE INITIATIVE WAS
SOMETHING BEING IMPOSED ON THEM, WHICH IS NOT TRUE. RATHER,
IT IS A WAY TO GET MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES TO TAKE OWNERSHIP
OF THE ISSUES AND ADDRESS THEM DIRECTLY, EXPLAINED U/S
DOBRIANSKY. THE FM REPLIED THAT ITALY SUPPORTS A
CONSULTATIVE, NON-PATERNALISTIC APPROACH, AND WOULD TRY TO
EXPLAIN THE CONCEPT IN THEIR MEETING WITH MUBARAK LATER IN
THE DAY.


13. (U) U/S DOBRIANSKY CONCLUDED THE MEETING BY NOTING HER
APPRECIATION FOR ITALY'S HELP AND WILLINGNESS TO TAKE A STAND
ON ISSUES THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO THE U.S.

SEMBLER

NNNN
2004ROME01050 - Classification: SECRET